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As I read this, I just had to address these false statements:
1) before the resurrection and ascension of Jesus heaven wasn't open to believers. ... just NOT TRUE
As one of our theologians answered the question sometime ago
During Old Testament times, did believing Jews go to heaven?
Part of his answer was:
Salvation, including heavenly citizenship, was always part of the Messianic faith. Believers of all ethnic, cultural, and linguistic groups went to heaven in Old Testament times. This included Jewish believers. The testimony of prominent Jewish believers affirm that they knew about and believed this:
None of those verses say that anyone went to heaven in Old Testament times.
Excerpt:
Question: "Where did Old Testament believers/saints go when they died?"
Answer: The Old Testament believers went to a place of comfort and rest called “paradise” when they died. The Old Testament taught life after death and that everyone who departed from this life went to a place of conscious existence. The general term for this place was Sheol, which could be translated “the grave” or “the realm of the dead.” The wicked were there (Psalm 9:17; 31:17; 49:14; Isaiah 5:14), and so were the righteous (Genesis 37:35; Job 14:13; Psalm 6:5; 16:10; 88:3; Isaiah 38:10).
2) The only people who are automatically saved are those who die before reaching what is often called the age of accountability. ...That is just NOT TRUE
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3) The only people who are automatically saved are ____________ ...That is just NOT TRUE
probably the most egregious because it is the offering of an alternative gospel which God curses anybody who does preach such. he true faith being present at death: Galations 1:8-9
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we
preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!
As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other
than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
The truth is that the true faith is what God looks for:
"without faith it is impossible to please God" Hebrews 11:6
"faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." Romans 10:17
Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,
but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Excerpt:
Although it is possible that God applies Christ’s payment for sin to those who cannot believe, the Bible does not specifically say that He does this. Therefore, this is a subject about which we should not be adamant or dogmatic. God’s applying Christ’s death to those who cannot believe would seem consistent with His love and mercy. It is our position that God applies Christ’s payment for sin to babies and those who are mentally handicapped, since they are not mentally capable of understanding their sinful state and their need for the Savior, but again we cannot be dogmatic. Of this we are certain: God is loving, holy, merciful, just, and gracious. Whatever God does is always right and good, and He loves children even more than we do.
But all of this is conjecture since it is nowhere actually stated in Scripture. I think, from what I can gather (and I am certainly no expert on this), the reasoning behind believing in an age of accountability boils down to a couple of issues: First, people are accountable for their response to the witness of God in creation (Rom. 1:18f) and to the witness of God in the Bible and in the person of Christ (Acts 17:31). But second, since that response is based on one’s ability to comprehend and respond to the message, a person becomes personally accountable when he or she reaches a point where they have the spiritual and mental facility to grasp the issues. This does not mean they are not sinful, but only that they have not reached a place where they can understand.
While not directly stated in Scripture, it can be deduced from God's character that He does not hold accountable those who simply cannot even respond to His general or natural revelation of Himself in creation.
If you don't agree with that, then you don't agree.
The contextual translation of tetelestai: It is finished, accomplished and completed, bringing it to an end; it is not an accounting term of paid in full. [It] makes absolutely no sense to take a detour from that which was accomplished, completed and finished, putting an end to sacrificing:
"For I desire mercy, not Sacrifice."
Unless of course, you would like add in a Substitution Theory.
The purpose of Christ’s death was never to appease a wrathful God.
That in and of itself is a syncretistic Christian-Pagan concept, as is your view of Hades.
Evidently, you see things with a legalistic mindset, not one where love prevails.
Answer: Of the last sayings of Christ on the cross, none is more important
or more poignant than, “It is finished.” Found only in the Gospel of John, the
Greek word translated “it is finished” is tetelestai, an accounting term that
means “paid in full.” When Jesus uttered those words, He was declaring the debt
owed to His Father was wiped away completely and forever. Not that Jesus wiped
away any debt that He owed to the Father; rather, Jesus eliminated the debt owed
by mankind—the debt of sin.
The word tetelestai was also
written on business documents or receipts in New Testament times to show
indicating that a bill had been paid in full. The Greek-English lexicon by
Moulton and Milligan says this:
“Receipts are often introduced by the
phrase [sic] tetelestai, usually written in an abbreviated manner...” (p. 630).
The connection between receipts and what Christ accomplished would have been
quite clear to John’s Greek-speaking readership; it would be unmistakable that
Jesus Christ had died to pay for their sins.
In ancient times when a promissory note was paid, the one holding the note wrote
“TETELESTAI” across it. A deed to property was not in effect until it was dated
and signed, and when this was accomplished, the clerk wrote “TETELESTAI” across
the deed. When someone had a debt and it was paid off, the creditor would write
"TETELESTAI" on the certificate of debt signifying that it was "PAID IN FULL".
Several years ago, archaeologists digging in Egypt uncovered the "office" of an
ancient "CPA." In this office they found a stack of bills, with the Greek word
"tetelestai" inscribed across each bill - "Paid in full"! When Christ gave
Himself on the Cross, He fulfilled all the righteous demands of the law and our
"sin debt" was PAID IN FULL.
19:30. The sixth word or
saying that Jesus spoke from the cross was the single Greek work tetelestai which means It is finished. Papyri receipts for taxes
have been recovered with the word tetelestai written across them, meaning
''paid in full.'' This word on Jesus' lips was significant. When He said, ''It
is finished'' (not ''I am finished''), He meant His redemptive work was
completed. He had been made sin for people (2 Cor. 5:21) and had suffered the
penalty of God's justice which sin deserved.
[The Bible Knowledge
Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary
Faculty, p. 340]
Hebrews 10:1 For the Law, since it has only
a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never,
by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect
those who draw near. 2] Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be
offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have
had consciousness of sins? 3] But in those sacrifices there is a
reminder of sins year by year. 4] For it is impossible for the blood of
bulls and goats to take away sins. 5] Consequently, when Christ came
into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a
body have you prepared for me; 6] in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure. 7] Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do
your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’” 8]
When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken
pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings”
(these are offered according to the law), 9] then
he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in
order to establish the second. 10] By this
will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ
once for all. 11] Every priest stands daily
ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never
take away sins; 12] but He, having offered
one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of
God
The planned or not planned is a red herring question. Since God definitely has a plan to bring us all to Him in agape love . . . the way we get there is part of His plan.
The question is about His death.
Quote:
The actual question that is constantly being bandied about is whether or not God demanded that Christ be horrendously scourged and crucified to magically pay or appease God for our human disobedience in some scapegoat fashion. That is preposterous! It was God's plan that we would be sent a messenger when we were ready to learn the truth about His love for us. God knew what we would do to any messenger bringing the truth . . . so He sent His Son to bear the savagery and brutality the message would inevitably evoke in our barbaric ancestors.
Both the Father and the Son knew what they would do . . . and they still went forward because it is part of the overall plan to bring us to a true and unambiguous understanding of God and Jesus. That understanding is true age-during life. But we perverse humans were so indoctrinated by the primitive barbarity of our ancestors' belief in a need to appease a smiting War God with blood sacrifices . . . that they interpreted Jesus enduring the brutality as a blood sacrifice to appease God . . . instead of as an unambiguous demonstration of agape love for us all. Jesus smote no one.
Did He need to die? The answer is Yes . . . because only then would His Holy Spirit become part of our collective human consciousness to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts." We ALL need to die . . . and we ALL will be "born again" as Spirit as Christ was. Christ is the First-born human Spirit that connected perfectly with God's Spirit of pure agape love . . . and we are supposed to follow Him.
So, you believe death was the only way to 'release' the Holy Spirit from Jesus and make it available to people. I asked earlier if you can support that statement from the Bible, but did not get an answer. Also, why do you think being born again happens when we die? The Bible teaches it happens when we are still alive.
When you are in Christ, the old you is dies, and the new you is born. Note, that this cannot be reversed.
"Therefore if anyone is in Christ, they are a new creation: old things are passed away; behold, all things are made new"
"So you also should consider yourselves to be dead to the power of sin and alive to God through Christ Jesus"
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 08-07-2014 at 05:52 AM..
I believe that Jesus died for our sins and this is in connection with the OT laws and teaching regarding sin. He became sin for us so that we would be restored to God. He gave Himself as a ransom for us all. Here are some scriptures that tell us why Jesus died for us.
2 Corinthians 5:21
" He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him"
and
2 Peter 2:24
24 and He Himself [a]bore our sins in His body on the [b]cross, so that we might die to [c]sin and live to righteousness; for by His [d]wounds you were healed.
and
John 1:29
"Behold the Lamb of God which beareth away the sin of the world.
Hebrews 9:12 YLT
neither through blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, did enter in once into the holy places, age-during redemption having obtained;
Leviticus 17:11 YLT
for the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar, to make atonement for your souls; for it [is] the blood which maketh atonement for the soul.
Hebrews 9:22 YLT
and with blood almost all things are purified according to the law, and apart from blood-shedding forgiveness doth not come.
Matthew 20:24-28
"You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. 26 It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, 27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.
Matthew 26
26 While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and[/SIZE]
]h]after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." 27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; 28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
1 Timothy 2:5
"For there is one God and one mediator also between God and men, the man Jesus Christ, who gave Himself as a ransom for all.
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 08-07-2014 at 05:58 AM..
When Adam sinned, sin entered his soul, cutting him off from the immortal life of God. Hence, "the soul that sins shall die"
Ezekiel 18:20.
"The soul is held accountable for the sin of man, because he is that soul—insofar as he is identified with the "old man" of Romans 6:6. For this reason, presenting the blood to God signifies the death of the old man in fulfillment of the sentence of death upon Adam. Moreover, when Isaiah prophesied of the Messiah’s death as the final sacrifice for sin, he described Him as a sacrificial lamb who "poured out of his soul unto death." In other words, His blood was poured out under the altar of God.
Point 2, We are all still accountable to God and are in debt to Him because of our sins.
Jesus gave Himself as a ransom
"Since no man has the means to pay off the debt for his sin, he is to be "sold" as a slave (Exodus 22:3) to one who takes the position as a redeemer. A legal redeemer takes responsibility for another man’s debt and in turn receives authority over the sinner until his labor repays the redeemer. In essence, the redeemer buys his debt note. This is what Jesus did on the In paying the debt for the sin of the world, He was given authority over all of humanity with the right to forgive or to hold accountable - See more at: http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.n....7KSj9adh.dpuf. . See more at: http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.n....9aLIkgon.dpuf
ransom=lutron-ransom or price paid for redeeming captives, loosing them from their bonds and setting them at liberty
"The prime example of the manifestation of the love of God is found in Jesus Christ Himself. He did not come to consume or devour us but to give His life for the world.The blood was to be poured out upon the ground as atonement for our souls (Lev. 17:13). In pouring out the blood, it was said that the SOUL was poured out. This is what Jesus did at the Cross, for we read in Isaiah 53:12, "He has poured out His soul unto death." It was done by means of the blood that was poured out upon the ground at the Cross.To pour the blood of any sacrifice upon the ground (including the Sacrifice of Christ) was an act of giving. Christ did this in accordance with the law, which said that the blood was to be used to atone for our souls."
God's Kingdom Ministries :: 02/01/2008 - The Laws of Blood and Redemption
Leviticus 17
11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the [f]life that makes atonement
atonement=kaphar-cover, make reconciliation, purging, wiping away
Hebrews 10
11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for [f]sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are [g]sanctified. 15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,
16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws upon their heart,
And on their mind I will write them,"
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 08-07-2014 at 06:30 AM..
Question: "What did Jesus mean when He said, 'It is finished'?"
Answer: Of the last sayings of Christ on the cross, none is more important or more poignant than, “It is finished.” Found only in the Gospel of John, the Greek word translated “it is finished” is tetelestai, an accounting term that means “paid in full.” When Jesus uttered those words, He was declaring the debt owed to His Father was wiped away completely and forever. Not that Jesus wiped away any debt that He owed to the Father; rather, Jesus eliminated the debt owed by mankind—the debt of sin.
The word tetelestai was also written on business documents or receipts in New Testament times to show indicating that a bill had been paid in full. The Greek-English lexicon by Moulton and Milligan says this:
“Receipts are often introduced by the phrase [sic] tetelestai, usually written in an abbreviated manner...” (p. 630). The connection between receipts and what Christ accomplished would have been quite clear to John’s Greek-speaking readership; it would be unmistakable that Jesus Christ had died to pay for their sins.
In ancient times when a promissory note was paid, the one holding the note wrote “TETELESTAI” across it. A deed to property was not in effect until it was dated and signed, and when this was accomplished, the clerk wrote “TETELESTAI” across the deed. When someone had a debt and it was paid off, the creditor would write "TETELESTAI" on the certificate of debt signifying that it was "PAID IN FULL". Several years ago, archaeologists digging in Egypt uncovered the "office" of an ancient "CPA." In this office they found a stack of bills, with the Greek word "tetelestai" inscribed across each bill - "Paid in full"! When Christ gave Himself on the Cross, He fulfilled all the righteous demands of the law and our "sin debt" was PAID IN FULL.
19:30. The sixth word or saying that Jesus spoke from the cross was the single Greek work tetelestai which means It is finished. Papyri receipts for taxes have been recovered with the word tetelestai written across them, meaning ''paid in full.'' This word on Jesus' lips was significant. When He said, ''It is finished'' (not ''I am finished''), He meant His redemptive work was completed. He had been made sin for people (2 Cor. 5:21) and had suffered the penalty of God's justice which sin deserved.
[The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, p. 340]
Hebrews 10:1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2] Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3] But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4] For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5] Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; 6] in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. 7] Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’” 8] When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9] then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10] By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11] Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12] but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God.
Yes. Tetelestai=Paid in full!! I love GotQuestions.Org. They also have a printed version which is a compilation of the most frequently asked questions. It is a good gift idea.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
You clearly do not read the last part of this verse with understanding, Christ's death and rebirth as Spirit connected us all to God permanently. But it is His life as quickening Spirit (Comforter) that truly benefits us and guides us to the truth that sanctifies us in His love.
I could accuse you of the same, since you are going to have trouble with the bolded.
Back to the matter at hand...
This passage says we are saved (justified) by His blood ("Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin." Heb. 9:22). However, there is much more! He does not leave us to fend for ourselves, but rather has given us His Spirit to mold us and make us in His image (sanctification).
Here's the answer to the OP:
Romans 5
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
You clearly do not read the last part of this verse with understanding, Christ's death and rebirth as Spirit connected us all to God permanently. But it is His life as quickening Spirit (Comforter) that truly benefits us and guides us to the truth that sanctifies us in His love.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
I could accuse you of the same, since you are going to have trouble with the bolded.
Back to the matter at hand...
This passage says we are saved (justified) by His blood ("Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin." Heb. 9:22). However, there is much more! He does not leave us to fend for ourselves, but rather has given us His Spirit to mold us and make us in His image (sanctification).
That Christ's loving sacrifice resulted in the shedding of His blood through horrendous scourging and crucifixion at the hands of our savage and barbaric ancestors is a fact. It was inevitable but it is NOT a requirement of forgiveness. That is primitive ignorance ("carnal milk") speaking . . . NOT God. It is the last part of your sentence that is true IF we listen to the guidance of His Holy Spirit (Comforter) within our consciousness.
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