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So what do early church fathers say about atonement?
Ambrose (c. 339-97):Although Christ suffered for all, yet He suffered for us particularly, because He suffered for the Church. Saint Ambrose of Milan, Exposition of the Holy Gospel according to Saint Luke, trans. Theodosia Tomkinson (Etna: Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies, 1998), Book VI, §25, p. 201. Latin Text: Et si Christus pro omnibus passus est, pro nobis tamen specialiter passus est; quia pro Ecclesia passus est. Expositio Evangelii secundum Lucam, 6.25, PL 15:1675.
Jerome (347-420) on Matthew 20:28:He does not say that he gave his life for all, but for many, that is, for all those who would believe. See Turretin, Vol. 2, p. 462. Latin text: Non dixit animam suam redemptionem dare pro omnibus, sed pro multis, id est, pro his qui credere voluerint. Commentariorum in Evangelium Matthaei, Liber Tertius, PL 26:144-145.
Hilary of Arles (c. 401-449) commenting on 1 John 2:2:When John says that Christ died for the sins of the “whole world,” what he means is that he died for the whole church. Introductory Commentary on 1 John. Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture: New Testament, Vol. XI, James, 1-2 Peter, 1-3 John, Jude (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2000), p. 177. Latin text: et non pro nostris tantum. set etiam pro totius mundi peccatis; Aecclesiam mundi nomine appellat. Expositio In Epistolas Catholiicas, Incipit Epistola Sancti Iohannis Apostoli, Cap. II, v. 2, PL Supp. 3:118.
Augustine (354-430): But that world which God is in Christ reconciling unto Himself, which is saved by Christ, and has all its sins freely pardoned by Christ, has been chosen out of the world that is hostile, condemned, and defiled. For out of that mass, which has all perished in Adam, are formed the vessels of mercy, whereof that world of reconciliation is composed, that is hated by the world which belongeth to the vessels of wrath that are formed out of the same mass and fitted to destruction. Finally, after saying, “If ye were of the world, the world would love its own,” He immediately added, “But because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.” And so these men were themselves also of that world, and, that they might no longer be of it, were chosen out of it, through no merit of their own, for no good works of theirs had preceded; and not by nature, which through free-will had become totally corrupted at its source: but gratuitously, that is, of actual grace. For He who chose the world out of the world, effected for Himself, instead of finding, what He should choose: for “there is a remnant saved according to the election of grace. And if by grace,” he adds, “then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.” NPNF1: Vol. VII, Tractates on John, Tractate LXXXVII, §2-3, John 15:17-19.
Augustine (354-430): Hence things that are lawful are not all good, but everything unlawful is not good. Just as everyone redeemed by Christ's blood is a human being, but human beings are not all redeemed by Christ's blood, so too everything that is unlawful is not good, but things that are not good are not all unlawful. As we learn from the testimony of the apostle, there are some things that are lawful but are not good. John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., Works of Saint Augustine, Adulterous Marriages, Part 1, Vol. 9, trans. Ray Kearney, O.P., Book One, 15, 16 (Hyde Park: New City Press, 1999), p. 153.
Chrysostom (349-407) on Hebrews 9:28. “So Christ was once offered.”: By whom offered? evidently by Himself. Here he says that He is not Priest only, but Victim also, and what is sacrificed. On this account are [the words] “was offered.” “Was once offered” (he says) “to bear the sins of many.” Why “of many,” and not “of all”? Because not all believed, For He died indeed for all, that is His part: for that death was a counterbalance against the destruction of all men. But He did not bear the sins of all men, because they were not willing.NPNF1: Vol. XIV, Epistle to the Hebrews, Homly 17.
Prosper of Aquitaine (d. 463): Doubtless the propriety of redemption is theirs from whom the prince of this world is cast out. The death of Christ is not to be so laid out for human-kind, that they also should belong unto his redemption who were not to be regenerated. Latin text: Redemptionis proprietas haud dubie penes illos est, de quibus princeps mundi missus est foras, et jam non vasa diaboli, sed membra sunt Christi. Cujus mors non ita impensa est humano generi, ut ad redemptionem ejus etiam qui regenerandi non erant pertinerint. Responsiones ad Capitula Objectionum Vincentianarum, Capitulum Primum, Responsio, PL 51:178.
Theodoret of Cyrrhus (393-466) commenting on Hebrews 9:27-28: As it is appointed for each human being to die once, and the one who accepts death’s decree no longer sins but awaits the examination of what was done in life, so Christ the Lord, after being offered once for us and taking up our sins, will come to us again, with sin no longer in force, that is, with sin no longer occupying a place as far as human beings are concerned. He said himself, remember, when he still had a mortal body, “He committed no sin, nor was guile found in his mouth.” It should be noted, of course, that he bore the sins of many, not of all: not all came to faith, so he removed the sins of the believers only. Robert Charles Hill, Theodoret of Cyrus: Commentary on the Letters of St. Paul, Vol. 2 (Brookline: Holy Cross Orthodox Press, 2001), p. 175.
Wow!! An impressive array of early Christian fathers who are ignored by those who have had further "enlightenment," not from any Scripture or from any Saint, but from the light which they turned on in their own minds.
I know I have not been part of the discussion - but why not use what God provided through the authors in the Bible?
It says He died for the sins of the world - that's 1 John 2:2.
God no more wills all and every Man to be saved, and come to believe, so they will all and every one believe; than he wills all and every one to be damned, so they believe not and refuse the Gospel: The one Will is as universal as the other.
God is more complex than most think.
But no scriptual authority fo the second assertion? God is more complex than even a simple on/off.
I know I have not been part of the discussion - but why not use what God provided through the authors in the Bible?
It says He died for the sins of the world - that's 1 John 2:2.
I agree it should be enough, and it was used earlier, but some people reject it, and insist the "early church" taught otherwise. The poster you replied to proved that even the early church agreed with the Bible.
I agree it should be enough, and it was used earlier, but some people reject it, and insist the "early church" taught otherwise. The poster you replied to proved that even the early church agreed with the Bible.
This is my problem. Here is a snipet from the post and the reference I mentioned.
Quote:
Hilary of Arles (c. 401-449) commenting on 1 John 2:2:When John says that Christ died for the sins of the “whole world,” what he means is that he died for the whole church.
That's incorrect.
Nowhere in Scripture does it imply Christ died only for the church.
Now it is equally incorrect to believe that universal salvation is ever implied in the Bible.
OK. So, in your view His death was not a requirement, which would mean He would have accomplished what He came to accomplish even if He had not died the way He did. I totally disagree, but thank you for answering. I have seen too many posters trying to invent a meaning for His death even after admitting they do not believe He died for our sins. Dying for our sins WAS the purpose, and when that purpose is removed, then His death has no true meaning (except for Mystic who thinks it had to happen to "release the spirit"). We can still agree His life had a meaning.
It is not just Mystic, Finn . . . it is scriptural. The scriptures say we will be born again as Spirit. That must happen after our death because we obviously cannot be a Spirit in a spiritual body while still in our mortal body.
1 Corinthians 15:36:
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die
That is why Christ's human consciousness (Holy Spirit) was not released until His death That which is born of Spirit is Spirit. No one can flit about like the wind in their physical bodies. This is contrary to the beliefs of those many “born again” Christians who think they are “born again” while still alive in their mortal body.
Luke 12:50 (New King James Version)
50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished!
The baptism Jesus was to be baptized with was NOT John's baptism in water. It was His death and rebirth as Spirit (Holy Spirit) . . . since His human consciousness is the ONLY one that actually contains the complete Holy Spirit of God (Identical) and He could thereby make it available to the rest of us as our Comforter and guide within the collective human consciousness. We know that Jesus was quickened in death and is now the source of our spiritual quickening:
1 Corinthians 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Romans 6:4 (King James Version)
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
The confusion in mainstream Christianity stems from an improper understanding of the phrase translated as born again (gennaō anothen). It actually means conceived or begotten from above, from a higher place, of things that come from heaven or God. It does not mean an actual birth. The phrase “born again” can be made clearer by understanding the phrase it most resembles “born of God” (gennaō ek theos "begotten of God") which means "to be conceived by God" as a spiritual embryo. This is what those who call themselves "born again" while still in the flesh are mistakenly referring to. No human Spirit is born until our body dies.
Like all embryos our embryo spirits must mature sufficiently to actually be born. It is our actions in "love of God and each other" through our lives that achieve that spiritual maturation and determine what we have "built upon the foundation of Jesus"(wood, hay, stubble or gold, silver, etc.)
It is not just Mystic, Finn . . . it is scriptural. The scriptures say we will be born again as Spirit. That must happen after our death because we obviously cannot be a Spirit in a spiritual body while still in our mortal body.
1 Corinthians 15:36:
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die
That is why Christ's human consciousness (Holy Spirit) was not released until His death That which is born of Spirit is Spirit. No one can flit about like the wind in their physical bodies. This is contrary to the beliefs of those many “born again” Christians who think they are “born again” while still alive in their mortal body.
Luke 12:50 (New King James Version)
50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished!
The baptism Jesus was to be baptized with was NOT John's baptism in water. It was His death and rebirth as Spirit (Holy Spirit) . . . since His human consciousness is the ONLY one that actually contains the complete Holy Spirit of God (Identical) and He could thereby make it available to the rest of us as our Comforter and guide within the collective human consciousness. We know that Jesus was quickened in death and is now the source of our spiritual quickening:
1 Corinthians 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Romans 6:4 (King James Version)
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
The confusion in mainstream Christianity stems from an improper understanding of the phrase translated as born again (gennaō anothen). It actually means conceived or begotten from above, from a higher place, of things that come from heaven or God. It does not mean an actual birth. The phrase “born again” can be made clearer by understanding the phrase it most resembles “born of God” (gennaō ek theos "begotten of God") which means "to be conceived by God" as a spiritual embryo. This is what those who call themselves "born again" while still in the flesh are mistakenly referring to. No human Spirit is born until our body dies.
Like all embryos our embryo spirits must mature sufficiently to actually be born. It is our actions in "love of God and each other" through our lives that achieve that spiritual maturation and determine what we have "built upon the foundation of Jesus"(wood, hay, stubble or gold, silver, etc.)
The Bible does not teach the purpose of Jesus death was to "release the Spirit". That is something you concluded on your own.
It is not just Mystic, Finn . . . it is scriptural. The scriptures say we will be born again as Spirit. That must happen after our death because we obviously cannot be a Spirit in a spiritual body while still in our mortal body.
1 Corinthians 15:36:
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die
That is why Christ's human consciousness (Holy Spirit) was not released until His death That which is born of Spirit is Spirit. No one can flit about like the wind in their physical bodies. This is contrary to the beliefs of those many “born again” Christians who think they are “born again” while still alive in their mortal body.
Luke 12:50 (New King James Version)
50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished!
The baptism Jesus was to be baptized with was NOT John's baptism in water. It was His death and rebirth as Spirit (Holy Spirit) . . . since His human consciousness is the ONLY one that actually contains the complete Holy Spirit of God (Identical) and He could thereby make it available to the rest of us as our Comforter and guide within the collective human consciousness. We know that Jesus was quickened in death and is now the source of our spiritual quickening:
1 Corinthians 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Romans 6:4 (King James Version)
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
The confusion in mainstream Christianity stems from an improper understanding of the phrase translated as born again (gennaō anothen). It actually means conceived or begotten from above, from a higher place, of things that come from heaven or God. It does not mean an actual birth. The phrase “born again” can be made clearer by understanding the phrase it most resembles “born of God” (gennaō ek theos "begotten of God") which means "to be conceived by God" as a spiritual embryo. This is what those who call themselves "born again" while still in the flesh are mistakenly referring to. No human Spirit is born until our body dies.
Like all embryos our embryo spirits must mature sufficiently to actually be born. It is our actions in "love of God and each other" through our lives that achieve that spiritual maturation and determine what we have "built upon the foundation of Jesus"(wood, hay, stubble or gold, silver, etc.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
The Bible does not teach the purpose of Jesus death was to "release the Spirit". That is something you concluded on your own.
It is what Jesus taught, Finn. What do you think He was talking about to Nicodemus????The release of His Holy Spirit within the consciousness of humanity (the Comforter) is precisely why His death changed everything. Under the New Covenant that His sacrifice ushered in . . . we truly have no excuse. God has "written in our hearts" and Christ abides with us as the Comforter to guide us.
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