Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
View Poll Results: Was His death planned, and what was its purpose?
Gos planned it as a settlement for our sins, so that those who believe would have everlasting life 67 67.00%
Not planned by God, but His death still serves as an example and it "restores the community" 2 2.00%
Planned by God in order to release the Holy Spirit to men 5 5.00%
Jesus did not die for our sins, He was murdered 26 26.00%
Voters: 100. You may not vote on this poll

Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-11-2014, 04:39 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
10,688 posts, read 7,656,145 times
Reputation: 4674

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
you twist it to suit your understanding, show me one qoute from those fathers that say substitutionary. if you cannot, and you cannot guess who is cherry picking.
The early fathers certainly did not believe that Jesus work on the cross was for ALL. They believed it was for the "church," for those that "believed," and for the "elect." Not for the sins of the whole world which you espouse and by deduction must include an "anti" substitutionary hypothesis.

If you do believe only some are saved, how do their writings fit in with your "all" are saved ideas.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-11-2014, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
10,688 posts, read 7,656,145 times
Reputation: 4674
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Clearly, I feel that it is an indicator of our faith and that without it there really IS no faith. Clearly I take seriously the injunction to "spur one another to love and good deeds" as opposed to telling each other that the work of salvation is completed at the cross and that any emphasis on doing good works is to deny the effectiveness of the cross.
About this, we are in total agreement!! Too soon, etc.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2014, 05:08 PM
 
63,461 posts, read 39,726,177 times
Reputation: 7792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
From one of the great latter day Christian authors, C.S. Lewis
We are told that Christ was killed for us, that His death has washed out our sins, and that by dying He disabled death itself. That is the formula. That is Christianity. That is what has to be believed. Any theories we build up as to how Christ's death did all this are, in my view, quite secondary: mere plans or diagrams to be left alone if they do not help us, and, even if they do help us, not to be confused with the thing itself. All the same, some of these theories are worth looking at.

The one most people have heard is the one about our being let off because Christ volunteered to bear a punishment instead of us. Now on the face of it that is a very silly theory. If God was prepared to let us off, why on earth did He not do so? And what possible point could there be in punishing an innocent person instead? None at all that I can see, if you are thinking of punishment in the police-court sense. On the other hand, if you think of a debt, there is plenty of point in a person who has some assets paying it on behalf of someone who has not. Or if you take "paying the penalty," not in the sense of being punished, but in the more general sense of "footing the bill," then, of course, it is a matter of common experience that, when one person has got himself into a hole, the trouble of getting him out usually falls on a kind friend.

Now what was the sort of "hole" man had gotten himself into? He had tried to set up on his own, to behave as if he belonged to himself. In other words, fallen man is not simply an imperfect creature who needs improvement: he is a rebel who must lay down his arms. Laying down your arms, surrendering, saying you are sorry, realising that you have been on the wrong track and getting ready to start life over again from the ground floor - that is the only way out of a "hole." This process of surrender - this movement full speed astern - is what Christians call repentance. Now repentance is no fun at all. It is something much harder than merely eating humble pie. It means unlearning all the self-conceit and self-will that we have been training ourselves into for thousands of years. It means undergoing a kind of death. In fact, it needs a good man to repent. And here's the catch. Only a bad person needs to repent: only a good person can repent perfectly. The worse you are the more you need it and the less you can do it. The only person who could do it perfectly would be a perfect person - and he would not need it.

Remember, this repentance, this willing submission to humiliation and a kind of death, is not something God demands of you before He will take you back and which He could let you off of if He chose: it is simply a description of what going back to Him is like. If you ask God to take you back without it, you are really asking Him to let you go back without going back. It cannot happen. Very well, then, we must go through with it. But the same badness which makes us need it, makes us unable to do it. Can we do it if God helps us? Yes, but what do we mean when we talk of God helping us? We mean God putting into us a bit of Himself, so to speak. He lends us a little of His reasoning powers and that is how we think: He puts a little of His love into us and that is how we love one another. When you teach a child writing, you hold its hand while it forms the letters: that is, it forms the letters because you are forming them. We love and reason because God loves and reasons and holds our hand while we do it. Now if we had not fallen, that would all be plain sailing. But unfortunately we now need God's help in order to do something which God, in His own nature, never does at all - to surrender, to suffer, to submit, to die. Nothing in God's nature corresponds to this process at all. So that the one road for which we now need God's leadership most of all is a road God, in His own nature, has never walked. God can share only what He has: this thing, in His own nature, He has not.

But supposing God became a man - suppose our human nature which can suffer and die was amalgamated with God's nature in one person - then that person could help us. He could surrender His will, and suffer and die, because He was man; and He could do it perfectly because He was God. You and I can go through this process only if God does it in us; but God can do it only if He becomes man. Our attempts at this dying will succeed only if we men share in God's dying, just as our thinking can succeed only because it is a drop out of the ocean of His intelligence: but we cannot share God's dying unless God dies; and he cannot die except by being a man. That is the sense in which He pays our debt, and suffers for us what He Himself need not suffer at all.

C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, (Fount Paperbacks, 1977), Chapter 4, The Perfect Penitent
That reasoning is so close and yet still corrupted by the notion that God needs something . . . debt repayment, penalty, punishment, whatever. They are all wrong. God needs NOTHING. We are the ones who are deficient and it is WE who needed that deficiency to be eliminated. We needed a "designated hitter" to do what we could not . . . achieve perfect agape love in a human consciousness. Christ did that for us and we have nothing to do with it. We have to build on that foundation of perfect agape love in a human consciousness by trying to produce as much agape love in our consciousness as we can. That is why we are told to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. There was no debt to be repaid. There was no punishment to be endured. There was just a deficiency to be eliminated.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2014, 05:15 PM
 
Location: NC
14,697 posts, read 17,026,769 times
Reputation: 1504
1 John 2


My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an [a]Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the [b]propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.


1 Timothy 2

5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony [d]given at [e]the proper time. 7 For this I was appointed a [f]preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 08-11-2014 at 05:34 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2014, 06:22 PM
 
Location: Florida
76,953 posts, read 47,272,488 times
Reputation: 14763
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Clearly, I feel that it is an indicator of our faith and that without it there really IS no faith.
That's pretty much what I said. Why did you mock me for it if you share the same view?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2014, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
10,688 posts, read 7,656,145 times
Reputation: 4674
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
That reasoning is so close and yet still corrupted by the notion that God needs something . . . debt repayment, penalty, punishment, whatever. They are all wrong. God needs NOTHING. We are the ones who are deficient and it is WE who needed that deficiency to be eliminated. We needed a "designated hitter" to do what we could not . . . achieve perfect agape love in a human consciousness. Christ did that for us and we have nothing to do with it. We have to build on that foundation of perfect agape love in a human consciousness by trying to produce as much agape love in our consciousness as we can. That is why we are told to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. There was no debt to be repaid. There was no punishment to be endured. There was just a deficiency to be eliminated.
Unfortunately, your only source for your definition of what Christ's death did---is you. You have no early church fathers, no scripture, not even some of the most affluent modern Christian writers. In effect, it is a religion created by you that happens to throw Jesus into the mix.

It may be a "belief," but just because Jesus is in the mix doesn't make it Christian.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2014, 07:29 PM
 
63,461 posts, read 39,726,177 times
Reputation: 7792
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
That reasoning is so close and yet still corrupted by the notion that God needs something . . . debt repayment, penalty, punishment, whatever. They are all wrong. God needs NOTHING. We are the ones who are deficient and it is WE who needed that deficiency to be eliminated. We needed a "designated hitter" to do what we could not . . . achieve perfect agape love in a human consciousness. Christ did that for us and we have nothing to do with it. We have to build on that foundation of perfect agape love in a human consciousness by trying to produce as much agape love in our consciousness as we can. That is why we are told to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. There was no debt to be repaid. There was no punishment to be endured. There was just a deficiency to be eliminated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Unfortunately, your only source for your definition of what Christ's death did---is you. You have no early church fathers, no scripture, not even some of the most affluent modern Christian writers. In effect, it is a religion created by you that happens to throw Jesus into the mix.
Wrong. It is based on the scriptures and revelations of Christ about our God. You choose to blindly accept whatever our ignorant ancient ancestors believed about God ignoring the accumulated knowledge of over 2000+ years. I do not.
Quote:
It may be a "belief," but just because Jesus is in the mix doesn't make it Christian.
Sadly your beliefs are so steeped in ancient religion and so driven by guilt-ridden interpretations of God's relationship to us biased by that religion that you fail to see that a Christian is one who tries as best they can to follow Christ in "love of God and each other," period. Everything else in religion is human vanity and hubris corrupted by the vice of power over others.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2014, 07:29 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 10,832,457 times
Reputation: 1869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
That's pretty much what I said. Why did you mock me for it if you share the same view?
Because, Finn, you so strongly emphasize the idea that good works are not a requirement, that you fail to include the idea that clearly they are a part of any true believer's life. I am sorry, but I have run across too many who say that any encouragement to good work is demonstration that the person is not trusting in the finished work of the cross. Maybe you could make a note of that.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2014, 07:42 PM
 
63,461 posts, read 39,726,177 times
Reputation: 7792
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Because, Finn, you so strongly emphasize the idea that good works are not a requirement, that you fail to include the idea that clearly they are a part of any true believer's life. I am sorry, but I have run across too many who say that any encouragement to good work is demonstration that the person is not trusting in the finished work of the cross. Maybe you could make a note of that.
The point you stress IS an important one, nate . . . but the concern over motivation confuses many. There is no merit whatsoever in being motivated to believe or do ANYTHING because you seek salvation. I suspect Finn is reacting to that aspect. Salvation is NOT our job. It is finished. Our job is sanctification and building on the foundation Christ laid of perfect agape love within a human consciousness. Our job is to produce as much "fruit" from the vine of Christ as possible. This where you and Finn and others conflict. They want to stress the "it is not necessary for salvation" aspect and you are stressing the "fruit" production as evidence of the acceptance of Christ's instructions to His disciples.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2014, 09:10 PM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,192,722 times
Reputation: 2295
It is more than interesting TO ME that so much emphasis is placed on only the words "without the shedding of blood there is no remission" and "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness?" Apparently, the word ALMOST and the words NEARLY EVERYTHING are completely ignored by ALMOST EVERYONE who claim to be CHRISTIAN?

HEBREWS 9:22

New International Version
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

New Living Translation
In fact, according to the Law of Moses, nearly everything was purified with blood. For without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness.

English Standard Version
Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood; and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

New American Standard Bible
And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

King James 2000 Bible
And,
almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

American King James Version
And, almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

American Standard Version
And according to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.

Then again, ARE YOU under the LAW?


Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top