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Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved".
Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved".
Paul can take a flying leap at the moon. I only go with what Jesus said. And Jesus NEVER said, "Believe in my resurrection for salvation."
Paul can take a flying leap at the moon. I only go with what Jesus said. And Jesus NEVER said, "Believe in my resurrection for salvation."
well lets see so,
John 20:26 "And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. STOP, this is after his resurrection, JESUS is saying “BELIEVE” now?, now lets continue. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. NOW WHAT DID JESUS SAY? 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed”. wait a minute, did not Thomas see JESUS before, (smile). what is so important in his believing NOW?. because he have risen from the dead, so that right there moot your point totally.
well lets see so,
John 20:26 "And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. STOP, this is after his resurrection, JESUS is saying “BELIEVE” now?, now lets continue. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. NOW WHAT DID JESUS SAY? 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed”. wait a minute, did not Thomas see JESUS before, (smile). what is so important in his believing NOW?. because he have risen from the dead, so that right there moot your point totally.
Now thrillobyte, do you believe JESUS?, well.
Jeez, I don't know how many times I can repeat this: if you want to believe in Jesus' resurrection by all means do so.
Jesus commands Thomas to believe he has resurrected. Question:
1) Is this a command for ALL Christians to believe or just Thomas specifically?
2) And did Jesus say not believing is worthy of damnation? And forget Romans. We've already dealt with that.
3) And doesn't Jesus make clear that believing in his resurrection confers blessings, not salvation?
Now, 101c, please deal with those three questions specifically.
Jeez, I don't know how many times I can repeat this: if you want to believe in Jesus' resurrection by all means do so.
Jesus commands Thomas to believe he has resurrected. Question:
1) Is this a command for ALL Christians to believe or just Thomas specifically?
John 20:29 "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. well I believe that's all Christians. let me say it this way. all Christians who believe
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2) And did Jesus say not believing is worthy of damnation? And forget Romans. We've already dealt with that.
well lets see what God, JESUS DID SAY. Mark 16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned”. STOP, what do baptism show?. Romans 6:4 "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life”. oh that's what he said.
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3) And doesn't Jesus make clear that believing in his resurrection confers blessings, not salvation?
well is eternal life a blessing or salvation, I'll let you make the call
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Now, 101c, please deal with those three questions specifically.
Well?
I did, now do you still not believe JESUS?. you deal with that question. if not then you preach another gospel, and you are accursed. this is not 101c saying this, but the Lord. see T, you have denied the FAITH.
Why do we need to "believe in Jesus" at all? What does that even mean? And salvation from what?
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Originally Posted by thrillobyte
We need to believe in Jesus because he said we needed to. That is all.
This is Paul's doctrine, not Jesus. All Jesus ever said in John was that whoever believed in HIM, not his resurrection specifically, would not perish. Jesus never once made a big deal about having to believe in his resurrection in order to be saved.
I can believe easily that Jesus was who he was without having to get into Paul's warped theologies on salvation. If I believe God is all, then I have absolutely no trouble believing everything Jesus said about himself. Sure I can believe God raised him from the dead, but that is because I believe God can do all things, not because God made his resurrection vital to salvation. Nowhere in the Bible, except for Paul--surprise, surprise--does it say belief in the resurrection is necessary to be saved. Paul established that doctrine all on his own.
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Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Oh, sorry, Pleroo. I thought you were being sarcastic, like so many are here, but you're serious so I apologize.
Why believe in Jesus? because he commanded us to. But far as I know he never commanded us to believe in his resurrection specifically. To him, I assume, it just wasn't that big a deal. His big deal was his death on the cross, which is what he came here for. His resurrection is just something God did to prove he was God's son.
Jesus was always very specific about what we had to do and what we didn't have to do. Now let me put a question to you: if Jesus did not command us to believe in his resurrection, is Jesus' resurrection necessary for salvation?
Remember, as I've stated in previous posts it was Paul's theology that you had to believe in Jesus' resurrection in order to be saved. But I reject Paul's theology. I believe in many ways he was anti-Christ. But I believe in Jesus. I just think the historical evidence for his resurrection is lacking. He might have risen, he might not have. It's a non-sequitur for me because Jesus didn't command me to. I take some of Paul's advice because it's good advice but I take nothing he said as being equal in authority with Jesus.
And I just don't understand this ridiculous belief that our resurrection is dependent on Jesus'. That's totally foolish. Again it's a stupid notion that Paul came up with on his own. God can raise us under any circumstances. Like this penal blood atonement nonsense it's totally non-essential. Jesus died; we're forgiven. That's all we need to believe.
In this thread you say that Jesus said we need to believe in Him in order not to perish. Yet, in your previous thread - http://www.city-data.com/forum/chris...ord-jesus.html - in post #3 which you posted on 08-21-2014, you claimed that having to believe in Jesus in order to be saved was not an original saying of Jesus but was something made up by later theologians to threaten pagans. Here is what you said.
But how is it that Mark never once has Jesus saying, "You must believe in me in order to be saved" while in John, written some 40 years later, that's all Jesus is saying throughout the gospel. Frankly, this sounds like a propaganda campaign by the writers of John to scare pagans into converting to Christianity. That it is totally absent in Mark tells me this is not an original teaching of Jesus--that the command you must believe in Jesus for salvation is just a concoction by later Christian theologians like Tertullian, Augustine, and their ilk to threaten pagans with eternal torment if they don't accept Jesus, and by default accepting "Holy Mother Church" as their leaders.
How can you claim in one thread that having to believe in Christ for salvation is not an original saying of Jesus and then say in this thread that Jesus did say we need to believe in Him for salvation? You are contradicting yourself.
Our resurrection is totally dependent on Christ. He Himself stated that He is the resurrection.
John 11:23 Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." 24] Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." 25]Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,26] and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
It is Jesus Himself who will resurrect both those who will be raised to life and those who will be raised to condemnation (John 5:24-29).
Those who are resurrected to life are able to be resurrected only because Jesus Himself was first resurrected. He is the firstfruits.
1 Cor. 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21] For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22] For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23] But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
And the fact that Jesus died for our sins as our substitute is clearly taught in the Bible. If a person doesn't believe that Jesus died for his sins, that Christ paid the penalty for his sins, then that person has not believed in Christ and is not saved, but remains under condemnation.
John 20:29 "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. well I believe that's all Christians. let me say it this way. all Christians who believe
well lets see what God, JESUS DID SAY. Mark 16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned”. STOP, what do baptism show?. Romans 6:4 "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life”. oh that's what he said.
well is eternal life a blessing or salvation, I'll let you make the call
I did, now do you still not believe JESUS?. you deal with that question. if not then you preach another gospel, and you are accursed. this is not 101c saying this, but the Lord. see T, you have denied the FAITH.
But you still haven't dealt with my specific questions. When I ask about salvation you switch it to blessings. They are NOT the same. A person can be saved and not receive a single blessing. "The same shall be called least in the Kingdom of God" Matthew 5.
Now:
Quote:
"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. well I believe that's all Christians. let me say it this way. all Christians who believe
But just so that we're clear, Jesus' suggestion to Thomas to feel his wounds is not a command, it is a request. It's like a father telling his son, "Jimmy come here. I want to show you something". If Jimmy doesn't come, is the father going to whip him. Thomas had the good sense to follow Jesus' request and Jesus complimented those who didn't see him but believed; they would be blessed, but it had nothing to do with salvation. You seem to believe it's a package deal. I don't.
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well lets see what God, JESUS DID SAY. Mark 16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned”. STOP, what do baptism show?. Romans 6:4 "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life”. oh that's what he said.
Now 101c, I called you on this practice before; it's deceiving. You know darn well that Mark 16:9-20 was added centuries later by churchmen in order to try to "complete" Mark, which he left hanging with the women fleeing from the tomb. These are NOT Jesus' words. Check any Bible except the KJV. It will say in the notes that those words were added much later by the church. And nowhere in the other gospels at the end does Jesus say, "Whoever doesn't believe will be damned. Certainly he does not say, "Whoever doesn't believe in my resurrection will be damned". Shame on you! Jesus NEVER said not believing in his resurrection would get a person damned. But it definitely helps to believe in his resurrection. It gets you additional blessings.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 08-29-2014 at 12:06 PM..
And the fact that Jesus died for our sins as our substitute is clearly taught in the Bible. If a person doesn't believe that Jesus died for his sins, that Christ paid the penalty for his sins, then that person has not believed in Christ and is not saved, but remains under condemnation .
Yes, I agree, but what does this have to do with believing in his resurrection? The two are separate events. Belief in his death is necessary for salvation if you subscribe to just what Jesus said. The resurrection is only necessary for salvation if you subscribe to what Paul later added to Jesus' doctrine of salvation. You accept Paul's authority to speak as if it were God speaking. I don't accept that authority. To me, on many points Paul was anit-christ. That's why I look upon Paul as a source for some good advice but not to go looking for the authoritative word of God.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
In this thread you say that Jesus said we need to believe in Him in order not to perish. Yet, in your previous thread - http://www.city-data.com/forum/chris...ord-jesus.html - in post #3 which you posted on 08-21-2014, you claimed that having to believe in Jesus in order to be saved was not an original saying of Jesus but was something made up by later theologians to threaten pagans. Here is what you said.
But how is it that Mark never once has Jesus saying, "You must believe in me in order to be saved" while in John, written some 40 years later, that's all Jesus is saying throughout the gospel. Frankly, this sounds like a propaganda campaign by the writers of John to scare pagans into converting to Christianity. That it is totally absent in Mark tells me this is not an original teaching of Jesus--that the command you must believe in Jesus for salvation is just a concoction by later Christian theologians like Tertullian, Augustine, and their ilk to threaten pagans with eternal torment if they don't accept Jesus, and by default accepting "Holy Mother Church" as their leaders.
How can you claim in one thread that having to believe in Christ for salvation is not an original saying of Jesus and then say in this thread that Jesus did say we need to believe in Him for salvation? You are contradicting yourself. .
I tried to make clear that the thrust of my other thread, despite its confusing if misleading title, was that the Jesus in Mark, in comparison to John's, never went around bragging to everyone that he was God's Son and a God himself and that you had to believe in him in order to be saved. This is totally absent in Mark. So my remarks go to Jesus' claim to being Deity. I did not, at least not intentionally, focus on whether or not you had to actually believe in Jesus to be saved. If you check very carefully you'll notice that nowhere in that thread did I say, "Listen folks, you do NOT have to believe in Jesus to be saved."
For me, salvation is totally dependent on believing in his sacrifice, not necessarily his resurrection because Jesus made belief in his death a requirement for salvation, but not his resurrection, though like I said it doesn't hurt and probably even helps your faith to believe in it. But for me our resurrection is not dependent on Jesus' resurrection because he never said it was. He never said, "You will rise because I have risen." In John he said, "I am the resurrection and the life" which to me means that it is through him that we will obtain the resurrection through his death, not simply because we believe he rose but because he died.
I've said elsewhere the other stuff in Romans about having to believe on Jesus resurrection for salvation is anti-Christ and not doctrine of Jesus, but something Paul invented in his own often-deluded mind. hence I will not address your comment below because I already have, or it's pro-Paul which I am not in favor of.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Our resurrection is totally dependent on Christ. He Himself stated that He is the resurrection.
John 11:23 Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." 24] Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." 25]Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,26] and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
It is Jesus Himself who will resurrect both those who will be raised to life and those who will be raised to condemnation (John 5:24-29).
Those who are resurrected to life are able to be resurrected only because Jesus Himself was first resurrected. He is the firstfruits.
1 Cor. 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21] For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22] For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23] But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
But you still haven't dealt with my specific questions. When I ask about salvation you switch it to blessings. They are NOT the same. A person can be saved and not receive a single blessing. "The same shall be called least in the Kingdom of God" Matthew 5.
Now:
But just so that we're clear, Jesus' suggestion to Thomas to feel his wounds is not a command, it is a request. It's like a father telling his son, "Jimmy come here. I want to show you something". If Jimmy doesn't come, is the father going to whip him. Thomas had the good sense to follow Jesus' request and Jesus complimented those who didn't see him but believed; they would be blessed, but it had nothing to do with salvation. You seem to believe it's a package deal. I don't.
Now 101c, I called you on this practice before; it's deceiving. You know darn well that Mark 16:9-20 was added centuries later by churchmen in order to try to "complete" Mark, which he left hanging with the women fleeing from the tomb. These are NOT Jesus' words. Check any Bible except the KJV. It will say in the notes that those words were added much later by the church. And nowhere in the other gospels at the end does Jesus say, "Whoever doesn't believe will be damned. Certainly he does not say, "Whoever doesn't believe in my resurrection will be damned". Shame on you! Jesus NEVER said not believing in his resurrection would get a person damned. But it definitely helps to believe in his resurrection. It gets you additional blessings.
was this added?, John 20:26 "And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. STOP, this is after his resurrection, JESUS is saying “BELIEVE” now?, now lets continue. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. NOW WHAT DID JESUS SAY? 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed”. wait a minute, did not Thomas see JESUS before, (smile). what is so important in his believing NOW?. because he have risen from the dead, so that right there moot your point totally.
quit with the excuses, your understanding have been expose as false.
Rejecting that the Resurrection of Jesus is not crucial will be sent to their damnation.
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
Anyone who does not believe that will find out just how fooled they were, when they believed that "hell is just a legend".
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Jesus NEVER said not believing in his resurrection would get a person damned. But it definitely helps to believe in his resurrection. It gets you additional blessings.
