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Old 10-02-2014, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Vernon, British Columbia
3,026 posts, read 3,623,807 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
That is simply not so at all. We are very much aware of what human biases are and the scientific method is specifically designed to combat them.



Exactly my point! You throw out this "everyone" statement, demanding that it apply to everyone, yet you simply do not know a single thing about me at all, let alone "everyone". So your "everyone" simply fails to apply here. It's called deductive reasoning, my friend.
Well I wasn't referring to you specifically when I said "everyone" if that's what you're saying. Of course the scientific method is used to combat biases, BUT in everyday life... in politics, in sports, and dare I say in religion even the most scientific among us have blind spots.
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Old 10-02-2014, 04:32 PM
 
23,653 posts, read 17,426,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
This is bordering on circular argument again however. The thread is about the historicity of Jesus. His death therefore is part of what is being established. You can not use his death as evidence for his death. You have to establish that he DID die in the context of this thread.....



I am not convinced you just read my post despite replying to it. The point I made directly relates to this statement from you. The thread is about establishing the truth of a claim of the Bible. That Jesus as a person actually existed. You can not use the Bible to prove the Bible. That is just circular and a chasm of tautology yawns wide before you if you choose that path.



It is not that I think it is false, it is that I see no reason at this time to think it is true. Subtle but important distinction there.
Then you can't use history books to prove history.
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Old 10-02-2014, 05:13 PM
 
Location: New York City
5,553 posts, read 7,975,982 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
The bible also says hundreds of zombies got out of their graves and were "seen by many" wandering around Jerusalem.

That is a much greater event than one person's supposed resurrection.

How come there is nowhere in recorded history other than the bible this stupendous, never seen before, event?

How come?

Yes, this one is a doozy for Christians. To make matters worse, this incredulous story is found ONLY in the book of Matthew and when the surrounding verses of the same crucifixion story are read in the other Gospels, this wild story sticks out like a FAKE thumb.
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Old 10-02-2014, 06:27 PM
 
Location: US Wilderness
1,233 posts, read 1,119,272 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Yes, this one is a doozy for Christians. To make matters worse, this incredulous story is found ONLY in the book of Matthew and when the surrounding verses of the same crucifixion story are read in the other Gospels, this wild story sticks out like a FAKE thumb.
This is a reference to Paul’s ‘first fruits’ image. For Paul, the resurrection of Jesus was the opening of the Messianic age and the harbinger of the end of days when everyone would be resurrected to be judged. Jesus was the first to be resurrected and a guarantee of the promise of a universal resurrection. Matthew has some of the most worthy people get resurrected to emphasize this point.

Quote:
Matthew 27
50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
Note the odd image here. The tombs break open and the holy people are raised to life when Jesus dies. But they do not come out of their graves until after Jesus does. Otherwise Jesus would not be the 'first fruits'. Did Matthew get mixed up about timeframes while writing and revise it in place rather than move the whole thing to Sunday morning?
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Old 10-02-2014, 07:35 PM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
31,374 posts, read 20,025,917 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alt Thinker View Post
This is a reference to Paul’s ‘first fruits’ image. For Paul, the resurrection of Jesus was the opening of the Messianic age and the harbinger of the end of days when everyone would be resurrected to be judged. Jesus was the first to be resurrected and a guarantee of the promise of a universal resurrection. Matthew has some of the most worthy people get resurrected to emphasize this point.



Note the odd image here. The tombs break open and the holy people are raised to life when Jesus dies. But they do not come out of their graves until after Jesus does. Otherwise Jesus would not be the 'first fruits'. Did Matthew get mixed up about timeframes while writing and revise it in place rather than move the whole thing to Sunday morning?
Or, as seems much more likely, did Matthew just pull this story out of his butt?
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Old 10-03-2014, 12:10 AM
 
23,653 posts, read 17,426,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Yes, this one is a doozy for Christians. To make matters worse, this incredulous story is found ONLY in the book of Matthew and when the surrounding verses of the same crucifixion story are read in the other Gospels, this wild story sticks out like a FAKE thumb.
There were no zombies, that is your interpretation. People came out of graves but it would be like the end of the world when people come back to life, or do you think you will be a zombie walking around when that time comes?
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Old 10-03-2014, 05:20 AM
 
Location: US Wilderness
1,233 posts, read 1,119,272 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude View Post
Or, as seems much more likely, did Matthew just pull this story out of his butt?
f course he made it up. I was explaining why he made it up. Matthew is full of references to other works, both OT and NT scriptures and even Philo. As with all of the Gospels, the point is not how literally true the events are but how they resonate with an already believing audience.
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Old 10-03-2014, 08:34 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,553 posts, read 7,975,982 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janelle144 View Post
There were no zombies, that is your interpretation. People came out of graves but it would be like the end of the world when people come back to life, or do you think you will be a zombie walking around when that time comes?
Janelle, I've posted this topic before on C.D so, let me take a bit from what I've posted before:

Now when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. 34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” which is translated, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

Some of those who stood by, when they heard that, said, “Look, He is calling for Elijah!” Then someone ran and filled a sponge full of sour wine, put it on a reed, and offered it to Him to drink, saying, “Let Him alone; let us see if Elijah will come to take Him down.”

And Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed His last.

Then the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. So when the centurion, who stood opposite Him, saw that He cried out like this and breathed His last, he said, “Truly this Man was the Son of God!”


~Mark 14:33-39

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

Some of those who stood there, when they heard that, said, “This Man is calling for Elijah!” Immediately one of them ran and took a sponge, filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and offered it to Him to drink.

The rest said, “Let Him alone; let us see if Elijah will come to save Him.”

And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.


Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!”


~ Matthew 27:45-54

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now it was about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. Then the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was torn in two. And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.’” Having said this, He breathed His last.

So when the centurion saw what had happened, he glorified God, saying, “Certainly this was a righteous Man!”


~ Luke 23: 44-47


Notice anything odd about these renderings? The writer of John does not even find the story important to say a peep about it.
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Old 10-03-2014, 12:19 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,875,624 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janelle144 View Post
There were no zombies, that is your interpretation. People came out of graves but it would be like the end of the world when people come back to life, or do you think you will be a zombie walking around when that time comes?
Regardless of what you want to call dead people who come out of graves and walk around Jerusalem "seen by many" as the bible says, there is no other recording of the incredible, stupendous, never before seen event anywhere else.

You have to admit, it is as big an event as can be imagined, hunderd's of walking dead or recently dead, and NO one else mentions them in recorded history?

Really? And you don't find that somewhat suspicious at all? REALLY?
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Old 10-04-2014, 12:11 PM
 
23,653 posts, read 17,426,140 times
Reputation: 7467
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
Regardless of what you want to call dead people who come out of graves and walk around Jerusalem "seen by many" as the bible says, there is no other recording of the incredible, stupendous, never before seen event anywhere else.

You have to admit, it is as big an event as can be imagined, hunderd's of walking dead or recently dead, and NO one else mentions them in recorded history?

Really? And you don't find that somewhat suspicious at all? REALLY?
We don't know how many and I am sure the newspapers of the day didn't record it and if they did they would say it was just those crazy followers of the man who was put to death telling tall stories. Jesus' followers weren't exactly welcome at that time or believed.

His followers did remember what happened though and told others. You either believe or not what they reported. You expect everything in ancient history to be recorded and by who?
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