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Hopefully the OP will. Since he's only 24 and the idea of a 24-year old who won't open his mind knocks the wind out of me.
I don't know if you read the entire original post, as I brushed on my attempts to deny a lot of realities of the gospel, especially during my college years. I only had agressive liberal friends in those years, although I was brought up a serious spirit-filled Protestant Christian. A lot of my collegiate studies involved secular, scientific, liberal Psychology. So yes, I've opened my mind, no need to have the wind knocked out of you. I'm not sitting here with one tooth and a gun on my KJV.
A little more on that, I really tried to ignore a lot of the realities of scripture, the gospel, and repentence so that I would not have to sacrifice certain things that I wanted. I really tried to take the message of repentence less seriously, fusing in worldly wants, and picking out doctrines that didn't fit my lifestyle at the time. That church is definitely out there, waiting, growing, intermingling in diversity of belief - but there is one thing missing, the changes that need to be made are not being made - it's too offensive, and it's not politically correct in America.
I've extensively looked into pro-gay movements like the opposing viewpoints of the "Gay Christian Network" for myself. I bring that up because you seem passionate that many churches reject gays if they teach repentence of the sin. Again - all of these personal interpretations like the scholarly arcitles of GCN and the like are luxuries of growing up in a wealthy nation. Christ, through the church and the word, is meant for the salvation and repentence of common man. The peasant and the king. It's really as simple as it seems.
(one more small thing about homosexuality, it is far far far from the only sin I would brush on that is increasingly ignored when regarding repentence. I do not zone in on that by any means, and we are talking about it because someone used rainbow flags as an example.) In fact, the blatant violations against modesty might bother me more in the contemporary churches. Not just appearence, but attitude. It's absolutely ignored as a minor detail that doesn't make a difference. Why would the lost need to look into the church, if they are just going to find more of what they found wandering out in the desert??
I may be giving up a lot of wordly treasures to follow the TRUE message of Christ, but what I've learned is, I don't have a choice. I need to fall flat on the ground and crawl back to him while I scrape my knees.
I may be giving up a lot of wordly treasures to follow the TRUE message of Christ, but what I've learned is, I don't have a choice. I need to fall flat on the ground and crawl back to him while I scrape my knees.
And you're doing that through the Catholic Church? I can respect that. It takes a great deal of discipline to be a good Catholic who follows the traditional beliefs and practices of the Church. Whether that Catholic is a liberal or conservative.
Last edited by DewDropInn; 09-22-2014 at 09:38 PM..
As long as you judge false teaching by relying on the words "written in ink" instead of those God has "written in our hearts" under agape love and the guidance of the Comforter . . . you will err. You reject the New Covenant and continue to rely on the Old "written in ink" and stone. You do not trust what is in your heart because your mind has been indoctrinated into the "precepts and doctrines of men" and you do not believe that Christ the Living Word of God ACTUALLY abides with us. Those who believe Christ instituted the New Covenant DO trust our hearts and the guidance of the Comforter in agape love. Agape love is our standard for testing the Spirit of everything . . . not words "written in ink" by blind minds from reading the OT.
2 Corinthians 3:14-17
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail (ignorance) untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail (ignorance) is done away in Christ.
15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail (ignorance) is upon their heart.
16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord (Jesus), the vail (ignorance) shall be taken away.
17Now the Lord is that Spirit (agape): and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by burrrrr
Societies use common symbols to communicate a general message. In the 21st century, it is common sense that a church proudly displaying rainbow flags is communicating the general message that they support gay relationships, and gay activism. One wouldn't drive by in their Kia and think "I wonder if they just like those colors on that flag? I wouldn't want to judge and assume it means they are pro-gay."
The come as you are message is a very Biblical message, what follows? Dropping yourself flat on the ground for Christ - I've tried the contrary, it does't work. The message of true repentance for the SAKE of his SACRIFICE gets gnarled and twisted by Satan into a "hateful" message. And by some extreme branches, they have turned the message of repentance INTO a hateful thing - IE, Westboro Baptist. Which is worse? Ignoring it or perverting it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn
Oh, my. You mean they are accepting people rather than rejecting them? A church is doing that? Wow. Are you sure? Let's see.... can you name someone who accepted people rather than rejecting them?
Need a hint? The rejected reached out to touch the hem of His garment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ_Maxx
That's not what he said. He said they support the sin of homosexuality where they should reject it as destructive and sinful and an offense against God. He said nothing of rejecting the people. The flag is not a symbol of the people, but a symbol of the sin. Jesus loved the people, but never once condoned sinful behavior.
He said nothing about supporting sin . . . just accepting people. The flag indicates acceptance of the people. Their relationship with God is their concern . . . not yours. YOUR relationship with God is your concern and if you pay it due diligence you cannot possibly have the time to concern yourself with anyone else's relationship with God! We are to produce as much agape love in this world as possible. It is not accomplished by your brand of judgmentalism, condemnation and rejection. As Christians we are charged to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't, period.
As I've heard it "a hospital for sinners." Where salvation, and a life of repentance is the message and the practice - like Paul said, holding out to the end! Are we losing the message of repentance in a lot of mainstream contemporary circles? Sacrifice? A complete laying down of the self? Is that too judgmental? It would appear so. It's a scary foundation to lose...
I see what you are poking at in the fire there ... "oh, well back then they were just hypocrites." I don't think the "hypocrite" accusation goes very far. I'm talking about a slipping cultural standard here in many of the American churches. I think it began pretty up and coming.... look like the secular, and in an exciting way ironically teach Biblically sound doctrine. Are we starting to see - look like the secular....... act like the secular?
Actually, I was saying that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, and maybe you could consider that valuable repentence comes with learning love and a better way, not from condemnation.
Actually, I was saying that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, and maybe you could consider that valuable repentence comes with learning love and a better way, not from condemnation.
OK - so that's what you were saying. Condemnation, human outcasting, social rejection, pointing fingers without looking inside your own heart/actions, etc ... are all Satanic and humanistic - they don't reflect a true Christian, there is no denying that..What is it that you disagree with? Harboring and guiding true repentance is not condemnation, but rather love and growth in the opposite direction from your worldly ways.
Example being, in a rapidly growing megachurch - you are really bringing in new believers all the time at the altar. Straight out of the dirty rainy town. Then what? What does ministering a walk with Christ truly entail? How are they expected to shepherd this huge flock they've brought in?... Is it really - give them a gift NIV Bible of their own so they can figure out which scriptures convict them, and which ones don't? In the meanwhile provide non-offensive culturally relevant and aware sermons, kid's activities, carnivals, cafe's, unbelievably smooth stage performances that are in reality worth top dollar? Those are not the problem in and of themselves, and serve as great fellowship. But they can become the sole distraction from repentance.
There is no true doctrinal or spiritual correction because it may be mistaken for condemnation? How is that going to work in the poor impoverished illiterate countries of the world where many people are truly hungry, poor laborers who rely on Jesus without the distraction of luxuries, intellectualism, and excess? How is there a friendship with Christ with no shedding of the old?
Meeting them in the middle is slowly becoming, staying in the middle. Don't you guys think? Culturally of course, accepted as a norm that keeps sliding lower.
Following the true message of repentance is inseparable from surrendering to Christ's unfathomable sacrifice. Embracing your NEW brothers and sisters who have just come out of sin involves supporting them through love, and shepherding them in repentance for the sake of his sacrifice. Prior to this, you embraced them as sinners and brought them to Christ Jesus through love, NOT so that they would be neglected and continue to live in the ways of the desert, what then would be the point at all?
The hardest part to swallow is that it truly entails turning from sin in our mortal, lazy, selfish bodies. All of us. It's not pretty until you STOP looking back.
I am currently attending RCIA and realized the sacred-ness of authority, of liturgy, and of communion. I am not trying to sell any of you on that as it is a personal decision. I was raised Holiness, then Pentecostal, then Vineyard Megachurch, then College Liberal. Now becoming Catholic, and learning more about Jesus than ever. HOWEVER, that's NOT the point of this post. I truly want to know is anyone else is saddened by this culture, what are we doing about it? What do we truly envision the church to be in our society?? All of my family is in the protestant church, they Love the Lord Jesus, and I don't think they understand how secular the culture is getting in SO many branches.
This realization that there was nowhere for me to turn is a huge part of what led me to this place in my faith, as well as what I perceive to be doctrinal truths. I dare to ask - is anyone else aware or annoyed by this stuff? Regardless of your Christian beliefs/denomination...
Sad deal right there. The Catholic church has become exactly what Jesus preached against when he rebuked the Pharisees in Matthew 23. Calling all the priests in the Catholic church "father", dude that's just messed up.
But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted
Sad deal right there. The Catholic church has become exactly what Jesus preached against when he rebuked the Pharisees in Matthew 23. Calling all the priests in the Catholic church "father", dude that's just messed up.
But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted
Again, I did not intend for this to get zoomed in on the fact that I am becoming a Catholic. That's my personal choice that I'm not trying to push on any readers of this thread.
If it interests you at all, however, the Catholic Church is well aware of this - I will provide a link to a website that explains very simply why a Catholic Pastor, or "Priest" is most often referred to as father, although I commonly here Rev. or Pastor.
Certainly, I'm not trying to sway you - but it's always good to know what you are arguing against, right? It's a website I found clears a lot of my questions.
That's all I'm going to say about the RCC from here on out in this thread. If anyone has a serious personal question about it, I'd be happy to PM. But the RCC is not the focus of the thread.
Example being, in a rapidly growing megachurch - you are really bringing in new believers all the time at the altar. Straight out of the dirty rainy town. Then what? What does ministering a walk with Christ truly entail? How are they expected to shepherd this huge flock they've brought in?...
And the point here is that you can ask because you don't know what they do, offer classes to those interested, small group studies and support or whatever. YOU DON"T KNOW and condemning without that knowledge is not any more helpful than holding the Catholic Church up as an example of doing it right
Last edited by nateswift; 09-23-2014 at 08:56 AM..
Reason: clarify
And the point here is that you can ask because you don't know what they do, offer classes to those interested, small group studies and support or whatever. YOU DON"T KNOW and condemning without that knowledge is not any more helpful than holding the Catholic Church up as an example of doing it right
Actually my specific example of doing it right was neighborhood Protestant churches of the mid 20th century. Granted most Catholic parishes do follow the model of the local parish still.
My point is I think the ever loosening of the church I was raised in and still hold dear in many ways is in a dangerous state of cultural slippage. I wanted to talk about the lowering standards for classic denominations like the ELCA, United Church of Christ - and now a couple generations later we start to see it in the mainstream charismatic churches - something I personally never saw coming.
Again ... As I've already said. I'm not proving some point about the Catholic Church structure. Leave that topic alone - I've stated it's my personal conviction and I'm not sitting here expecting people to understand it, or agree with it. The focus of my original post is declining culture in mainstream American churches.
Last edited by burrrrr; 09-23-2014 at 10:01 AM..
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