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I would point out that I have heard more Christmas bashing from fundamentalist and evangelical Christians than I have from atheists.
I have never had an atheist tell me not to celebrate Halloween or Christmas, but I have had many Christians tell me that I should not and a few very, very stupid ones try to stop me. Fortunately, I live in a country where I can celebrate anything I choose, and anyone can speak out against anything that they do not like.
I don't doubt you at all (having had more than one of those nasty little Jack Chick comics stuck under my windshield wiper), but how did someone try to stop you from celebrating Christmas and/or Halloween? I'm honestly curious.
Anti-Halloweenism (if that's even a word) tends to be associated with Protestants, as the Catholic origins of Halloween, or All Hallow's Eve, conflicts with many (not all) Protestants' doctrines against praying for intercession to the Saints, and more specifically, the Catholic doctrine of the state of Purgatory.
I don't doubt you at all (having had more than one of those nasty little Jack Chick comics stuck under my windshield wiper), but how did someone try to stop you from celebrating Christmas and/or Halloween? I'm honestly curious.
Anti-Halloweenism (if that's even a word) tends to be associated with Protestants, as the Catholic origins of Halloween, or All Hallow's Eve, conflicts with many (not all) Protestants' doctrines against praying for intercession to the Saints, and more specifically, the Catholic doctrine of the state of Purgatory.
I told this story in a former thread
The Christmas issue happened long ago. My ex-wife's family were members of a larger suburban church of Christ, and while I never asked for or requested membership, somehow we found ourselves on the mailing lists. about a week before Christmas, I get this call from some guy claiming to be a deacon, or elder, from this church, asks if I am the large kingcat who is married to so and so. Says he is calling because he heard we had been attending advent services at a different church and we were planning to attend a midnight mass, wanted to tell me not to, that I had no right to do so etc The argument got rather nasty, 4 letter words on both ends. Afterwords, I never stepped foot in that church again. Ever. I still attend Midnight Mass, I find it peaceful and entertaining, even though someone annually tells me that I am going for all the "wrong" reasons.
That was Cupper3's post. Along with an image illustrating similarities between Horus and Jesus, he had these words: "You many want to consider taking some comparative religion courses."
What line of reasoning did you use to determine that Cupper3 BELIEVES in Horus?
That was Cupper3's post. Along with an image illustrating similarities between Horus and Jesus, he had these words: "You many want to consider taking some comparative religion courses."
What line of reasoning did you use to determine that Cupper3 BELIEVES in Horus?
That would be your inference, not mine. I stated that the poster likely believes "it" (i.e., the arguments made by the Horus/Mithra/etc. sockpuppet figure in the video, which are commonly held by the Mythicists). I don't think Cupper3 actually believes that Horus exists as a deity, although Massey, whom he supports, did. Cupper3 does apparently believe the claims made that Horus was a model for Jesus. He made similar statements of support for this thesis in the referenced thread, and claimed Massey and other Mythicist theory proponents as valid sources, although they are disregarded as such by most historians and Egyptologists.
Sorry, it had Christmas in the title but it can be used year round. It's hilarious and answers the silly arguments of non-believers about Jesus. Awesome!!!
It only addresses one silly part of an argument used by some people who haven't done their homework properly. It doesn't address the serious arguments at all.
It only addresses one silly part of an argument used by some people who haven't done their homework properly. It doesn't address the serious arguments at all.
And they would be??? Have your done a search on that site, they may be there as well.
On the serious side I don't think anyone claims December 25th as the birthday of Jesus these day's. As far as I know most people understand it is not. In my church we recognize the date is not related to Jesus in any way other than it has become the day most set aside to remember the signifance of the birth of Jesus.
If you are aware of any group that believe December 25th is the actual date of the birth of Jesus please share it with me. I would be interested in learning of their reasoning.
On the serious side I don't think anyone claims December 25th as the birthday of Jesus these day's. As far as I know most people understand it is not. In my church we recognize the date is not related to Jesus in any way other than it has become the day most set aside to remember the signifance of the birth of Jesus.
If you are aware of any group that believe December 25th is the actual date of the birth of Jesus please share it with me. I would be interested in learning of their reasoning.
There are a couple of reasons why some people believe that it is a likely date of birth for Jesus, but it's not canonical, and early Christian groups used several different dates. St. Augustine thought it was on December 25, and that God chose to manifest Himself at a time when the sun begins to increase as darkness decreases.
There is also an argument that one can calculate when Zecheriah's priestly line would make their offerings in the temple and from internal evidence provided by Luke, calculate the approximate date of conception and birth for Jesus.
The calendar of the Qumran sect (based on Parchment 4 Q 321: Parchment Number 321 from Cave 4 Number 321 -- 4 Q 321 -- of the Qumran Dead Sea Scrolls), provides the order of the sacerdotal rota system for the temple of Jerusalem (1 Paralipomenon/Chronicles 24, 7-18) in 1st century Palestine. The line of Abijah, of which Zechariah was a descendant, (the father of John the Baptist) was required to officiate twice a year, on the days 8-14 of the third month, and on the days 24-30 of the eighth month. This latter period fell at about the end of September. Zecheriah learned his middle-aged wife was pregnant at the latter period, and that is why the Byzantine calendar celebrated 'John's conception' on September 23 and his birth nine months later, on June 24.
So, at the end of September, Zechariah "executed his priestly function" (Luke 1:8) according to his class and lineage. His wife, Elizabeth, conceived (the Church traditionally holds St. John's conception to have taken place on 23 September) just as St. Gabriel said (Luke 1:24) and hid herself away for 5 months.
On March 25 (the Feast of the Annunciation), in the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy (Luke 1:26), St. Gabriel appears to Mary to tell her she is to have a child.
On June 24, 3 months after the Annunciation, St. John the Baptist was born, at a time when the days were becoming shorter.
Circa December 25, nine months after the Annunciation, Jesus was born, at a time when the days were becoming longer.
The early Christians also shared the belief of the Jews in the "integral age" tradition, that the Prophets died on the same day they were conceived. With Passover set at 25 March, the Annunciation would have taken place on that same date -- and so the Nativity would've taken place 9 months later, on 25 December.
Other early Christian groups has different traditions, but that is the one that won out.
The Christmas issue happened long ago. My ex-wife's family were members of a larger suburban church of Christ, and while I never asked for or requested membership, somehow we found ourselves on the mailing lists. about a week before Christmas, I get this call from some guy claiming to be a deacon, or elder, from this church, asks if I am the large kingcat who is married to so and so. Says he is calling because he heard we had been attending advent services at a different church and we were planning to attend a midnight mass, wanted to tell me not to, that I had no right to do so etc The argument got rather nasty, 4 letter words on both ends. Afterwords, I never stepped foot in that church again. Ever. I still attend Midnight Mass, I find it peaceful and entertaining, even though someone annually tells me that I am going for all the "wrong" reasons.
Wow!
Was he upset that you were going to a different church, or because he didn't feel you should be celebrating Christmas?
There are a couple of reasons why some people believe that it is a likely date of birth for Jesus, but it's not canonical, and early Christian groups used several different dates. St. Augustine thought it was on December 25, and that God chose to manifest Himself at a time when the sun begins to increase as darkness decreases.
There is also an argument that one can calculate when Zecheriah's priestly line would make their offerings in the temple and from internal evidence provided by Luke, calculate the approximate date of conception and birth for Jesus.
The calendar of the Qumran sect (based on Parchment 4 Q 321: Parchment Number 321 from Cave 4 Number 321 -- 4 Q 321 -- of the Qumran Dead Sea Scrolls), provides the order of the sacerdotal rota system for the temple of Jerusalem (1 Paralipomenon/Chronicles 24, 7-18) in 1st century Palestine. The line of Abijah, of which Zechariah was a descendant, (the father of John the Baptist) was required to officiate twice a year, on the days 8-14 of the third month, and on the days 24-30 of the eighth month. This latter period fell at about the end of September. Zecheriah learned his middle-aged wife was pregnant at the latter period, and that is why the Byzantine calendar celebrated 'John's conception' on September 23 and his birth nine months later, on June 24.
So, at the end of September, Zechariah "executed his priestly function" (Luke 1:8) according to his class and lineage. His wife, Elizabeth, conceived (the Church traditionally holds St. John's conception to have taken place on 23 September) just as St. Gabriel said (Luke 1:24) and hid herself away for 5 months.
On March 25 (the Feast of the Annunciation), in the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy (Luke 1:26), St. Gabriel appears to Mary to tell her she is to have a child.
On June 24, 3 months after the Annunciation, St. John the Baptist was born, at a time when the days were becoming shorter.
Circa December 25, nine months after the Annunciation, Jesus was born, at a time when the days were becoming longer.
The early Christians also shared the belief of the Jews in the "integral age" tradition, that the Prophets died on the same day they were conceived. With Passover set at 25 March, the Annunciation would have taken place on that same date -- and so the Nativity would've taken place 9 months later, on 25 December.
Other early Christian groups has different traditions, but that is the one that won out.
I have seen several times over the years how the calculations work from dating when Johns father would have served but they all came to a different time of year than Dec.
Based on the scripture alone I am convinced it was not December 25th.
I know of no reason to argue of it, after all it is not something we are told to keep and observe. To me the Dec event is a fun cultural thing and if you choose to remember the signifacance of the birth of Jesus all the better.
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