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Rodger, did you ever converse with Fine Linen who use to post here? I found this posted by him. Be blessed.
"
FineLinen:
Hope Beyond Hell: The Righteous Purpose Of God's Judgment
HERE
Let's sing together with Randy....
I see an army - I hear a song
rise in the nations, beautiful and strong.
A song of mercy that shatters pride,
a song of great love that purifies.
I see warriors with hands upraised,
holding no weapon, but their swords of praise.
Strongholds shatter. Kings bow down
before the Master and yield their crowns.
And every eye will see Him as Love wins through at last. And every heart be drawn unto the Lamb.
Every voice will cry out what every heart will know
and before the throne we stand.
I see the earth now, its groanings cease.
Creation lifts praise to the Prince of Peace.
Wars have ended and weapons fall.
An invitation to one and all.
I see the Church now as a passionate Bride.
I see her Lover with His fiery eyes.
All His longing and her desire
join as one flame in heaven's fire.
And every eye will see Him as Love wins through at last.
And every heart be drawn unto the Lamb.
Every voice will cry out what every heart will know
and before the throne we stand.
I see a kingdom that never ends.
I see a Judge now who calls sinners 'Friends'. Who gathers rebels and overwhelms Them with His mercy so He can dwell in hearts He's captured and rules in love. He wraps around them a robe dipped in blood. His tears are washing their fears away and then He lifts them to see His face.
And every eye will see Him as Love wins through at last.
And every heart be drawn unto the Lamb.
Every voice will cry out what every heart will know
and before the throne we stand.
All will gaze in wonder at the reach of heaven's plan.
How could mercy touch the lowest man?
Drawn from every nation, every voice,and every tongue, amazed at what the Lord of Love has done.
amazed at what the Lord of Love has done.
I see a King now and I believe.
I hear His voice now and He's calling me.
God bless.
No, I never did converse with Fine Linen Shana but I love what he wrote!
I wonder why he is not still posting?
Maybe he got promoted - upwards
FineLinen: Hope Beyond Hell: The Righteous Purpose Of God's Judgment
HERE
Let's sing together with Randy....
I see an army - I hear a song rise in the nations, beautiful and strong. A song of mercy that shatters pride, a song of great love that purifies.
I see warriors with hands upraised, holding no weapon, but their swords of praise. Strongholds shatter. Kings bow down before the Master and yield their crowns.
And every eye will see Him as Love wins through at last. And every heart be drawn unto the Lamb. Every voice will cry out what every heart will know and before the throne we stand.
I see the earth now, its groanings cease. Creation lifts praise to the Prince of Peace. Wars have ended and weapons fall. An invitation to one and all.
I see the Church now as a passionate Bride. I see her Lover with His fiery eyes. All His longing and her desire join as one flame in heaven's fire.
And every eye will see Him as Love wins through at last. And every heart be drawn unto the Lamb. Every voice will cry out what every heart will know and before the throne we stand.
I see a kingdom that never ends. I see a Judge now who calls sinners 'Friends'. Who gathers rebels and overwhelms Them with His mercy so He can dwell in hearts He's captured and rules in love. He wraps around them a robe dipped in blood. His tears are washing their fears away and then He lifts them to see His face.
And every eye will see Him as Love wins through at last. And every heart be drawn unto the Lamb. Every voice will cry out what every heart will know and before the throne we stand.
All will gaze in wonder at the reach of heaven's plan. How could mercy touch the lowest man? Drawn from every nation, every voice,and every tongue, amazed at what the Lord of Love has done. amazed at what the Lord of Love has done.
I see a King now and I believe. I hear His voice now and He's calling me
Great find!
...A song of mercy that shatters pride...
Their pride shattered. By what? What ET'er still don't get, that God conquers all with mercy and not in anger (eternal punishment). All evil succumbs to His power (Love)...eventually.
FineLinen: Hope Beyond Hell: The Righteous Purpose Of God's Judgment
HERE
Let's sing together with Randy....
I see an army - I hear a song rise in the nations, beautiful and strong. A song of mercy that shatters pride, a song of great love that purifies.
I see warriors with hands upraised, holding no weapon, but their swords of praise. Strongholds shatter. Kings bow down before the Master and yield their crowns.
And every eye will see Him as Love wins through at last. And every heart be drawn unto the Lamb. Every voice will cry out what every heart will know and before the throne we stand.
I see the earth now, its groanings cease. Creation lifts praise to the Prince of Peace. Wars have ended and weapons fall. An invitation to one and all.
I see the Church now as a passionate Bride. I see her Lover with His fiery eyes. All His longing and her desire join as one flame in heaven's fire.
And every eye will see Him as Love wins through at last. And every heart be drawn unto the Lamb. Every voice will cry out what every heart will know and before the throne we stand.
I see a kingdom that never ends. I see a Judge now who calls sinners 'Friends'. Who gathers rebels and overwhelms Them with His mercy so He can dwell in hearts He's captured and rules in love. He wraps around them a robe dipped in blood. His tears are washing their fears away and then He lifts them to see His face.
And every eye will see Him as Love wins through at last. And every heart be drawn unto the Lamb. Every voice will cry out what every heart will know and before the throne we stand.
All will gaze in wonder at the reach of heaven's plan. How could mercy touch the lowest man? Drawn from every nation, every voice,and every tongue, amazed at what the Lord of Love has done. amazed at what the Lord of Love has done.
I see a King now and I believe. I hear His voice now and He's calling me
Great find!
...A song of mercy that shatters pride...
Their pride shattered. By what? What ET'er still don't get, that God conquers all with mercy and not in anger (eternal punishment). All evil succumbs to His power (Love)...eventually.
Thanks for your comment Zero.
Here is an analogy that I got from Ray Prinzing (my earthly hero and mentor)
A man courts a lady by continually expressing his love for her week after week, both verbally, and by bringing her gifts.
If he stops trying to persuade her to marry him, he loses everything.
But if he never stops trying to convince her until she says yes, then he goes to her place, gathers up all the gifts he gave her AND HER, and takes them back to his place for the rest of their lives.
Human love sometimes fails to elicit a loving response, but God’s divine love is not hampered by the limitations of human love.
Even if takes kolasis aionios (age-during corrective chastisement) which is a negative expression of His love, God will sooner or later elicit a loving response from everyone.
That is what I believe.
Here is an analogy that I got from Ray Prinzing (my earthly hero and mentor)
A man courts a lady by continually expressing his love for her week after week, both verbally, and by bringing her gifts.
If he stops trying to persuade her to marry him, he loses everything.
But if he never stops trying to convince her until she says yes, then he goes to her place, gathers up all the gifts he gave her AND HER, and takes them back to his place for the rest of their lives.
Human love sometimes fails to elicit a loving response, but God’s divine love is not hampered by the limitations of human love.
Even if takes kolasis aionios (age-during corrective chastisement) which is a negative expression of His love, God will sooner or later elicit a loving response from everyone.
That is what I believe.
On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."
God does use fire to correct/punish us, but not in the way ignorant man believes it is done. Even the most vile, evil hardened heart is no match for His mercy.
On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."
God does use fire to correct/punish us, but not in the way ignorant man believes it is done. Even the most vile, evil hardened heart is no match for His mercy.
Thanks Zero.
I found James Coram and Edwin Abbott's comments on the lake of fire which is the second death very helpful.
Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20 that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire. See also Ro. 5:18, 19
James Coram. biblical studies: Questions and Answers - Part One
Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST."
-- Dr. Edwin Abbott
Note God’s wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
Hello, Rodger, good to hear from you again, and wishing your wife the fullest of recoveries.
As you know, I read your early posts of circa 2011 with great skepticism at first when I was an ET'er like most good little fundamentalists. Then your posts and links got me to thinking. I eventually came round to UR and preterism. Continuing my studies I began to suspect that the lack of secular historical evidence in a historical Jesus combined with the obvious jimmying of the gospels by church leaders to try to create a simple human man into a deity and all the inconsistencies, errors and outright fabrications by Matthew in trying to twist OT prophecies to fit Jesus led me to conclude that, at best, Jesus was a normal rabbi, one of hundreds during those turbulent years, who ran afoul of Rome and was crucified and buried. It's speculative whether or not he arose as there is no historical evidence outside the scriptures to prove he did, as no one outside his immediate circle ever saw or even heard of him. At worst, Jesus was just the last in a long line of mythical figures drawn from earlier dying-rising demigods who likely never lived and was fabricated by mystical Jewish sects to meet some need they had for a Jewish version of some demigod like Dionysius.
Have your studies carried you this far, I mean past all the skullduggery evident in the creation of the Jesus mythology or are you pretty much happy where you are with UR and a Jesus whose death/resurrection is a blood sacrifice to propitiate God the Father's wrath against all sinners and all that ?
By the way, just to clarify, I am not atheist now; I am deist.
Thank you for your good wishes for my wife's fullest recovery thrillobyte.
In response to your question I would say that my main concern is that people learn that there is evidence that the Bible does not teach that God will allow anyone to choose themselves into an inescapable state of everlasting suffering. For people who regard the Bible as "the word of God" it will come as good news that it teaches that God's love will eventually win every heart and elicit a loving response from everyone.
That is what I believe and I love to share why I believe it.
LOVE WINS An Analytical Study of Words | Love Wins Because God Is Love…
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day
incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless
punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means
"endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But
Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same
duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states
they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the
life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul
teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
(which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last
enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed?
First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so
IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made
alive, IN CHRIST."
-- Dr. Edwin Abbott
Here is a chart on that subject I found helpful.
Regarding it's contents PHILIP SCRANTON wrote
"There are many texts in which aion and aionios cannot bear the meaning of eternity. And there are no texts in which the meaning of a limited period of time does not make reasonable sense. Our great loss is that when we ascribe the meaning of eternity to these words, we obliterate from view God's purpose of the eons. Further, the character of God is slandered, making Him the inflictor of incomprehensible woe."
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the lake of fire which is the secon death
God bless.
a thought provolking article
