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Mormons rejected who? Oh and there was and is absolutely no rejection of mormons in the past or today.
Yup. It's a bit hard to understand what was meant, but it seems that the assertion is something like "Mormons said others weren't Christians before the others said Mormons weren't Christians."
Yup. It's a bit hard to understand what was meant, but it seems that the assertion is something like "Mormons said others weren't Christians before the others said Mormons weren't Christians."
Both inaccurate and silly.
Straight from the horses mouth--(taken from lds.com/churchhistory)--all emphasis mine
Joseph Smith Jr., Served 1830–1844
Testimony
“Some time in the second year after our removal to Manchester, there was in the place where we lived an unusual excitement on the subject of religion. It commenced with the Methodists, but soon became general among all the sects in that region of country. Indeed, the whole district of country seemed affected by it, and great multitudes united themselves to the different religious parties, which created no small stir and division amongst the people, some crying, ‘Lo, here!‘ and others, ‘Lo, there!’ Some were contending for the Methodist faith, some for the Presbyterian, and some for the Baptist.”
“During this time of great excitement my mind was called up to serious reflection and great uneasiness; but though my feelings were deep and often poignant, still I kept myself aloof from all these parties, though I attended their several meetings as often as occasion would permit. In process of time my mind became somewhat partial to the Methodist sect, and I felt some desire to be united with them; but so great were the confusion and strife among the different denominations, that it was impossible for a person young as I was, and so unacquainted with men and things, to come to any certain conclusion who was right and who was wrong.”
“My mind at times was greatly excited, the cry and tumult were so great and incessant. The Presbyterians were most decided against the Baptists and Methodists, and used all the powers of both reason and sophistry to prove their errors, or, at least, to make the people think they were in error. On the other hand, the Baptists and Methodists in their turn were equally zealous in endeavoring to establish their own tenets and disprove all others.”
“In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right, or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it?”
“While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.”
“Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.”
“At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in darkness and confusion, or else I must do as James directs, that is, ask of God. I at length came to the determination to ‘ask of God,’ concluding that if he gave wisdom to them that lacked wisdom, and would give liberally, and not upbraid, I might venture.”
“So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.”
“After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.”
“But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.”
“It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!” “My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.” “I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: ‘they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.’”
“He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, ‘Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.’ I then said to my mother, ‘I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.’ It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy?”
“Some few days after I had this vision, I happened to be in company with one of the Methodist preachers, who was very active in the before mentioned religious excitement; and, conversing with him on the subject of religion, I took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had. I was greatly surprised at his behavior; he treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt, saying it was all of the devil, that there were no such things as visions or revelations in these days; that all such things had ceased with the apostles, and that there would never be any more of them.”
“I soon found, however, that my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion, and was the cause of great persecution which continued to increase; and though I was an obscure boy, only between fourteen and fifteen years of age, and my circumstances in life such as to make a boy of no consequence in the world, yet men of high standing would take notice sufficient to excite the public mind against me, and create a bitter persecution; and this was common among all the sects-all united to persecute me.”
“It caused me serious reflection then, and often has since, how very strange it was that an obscure boy, of a little over fourteen years of age, and one, too, who was doomed to the necessity of obtaining a scanty maintenance by his daily labor, should be thought a character of sufficient importance to attract the attention of the great ones of the most popular sects of the day, and in a manner to create in them a spirit of the most bitter persecution and reviling. But strange or not, so it was, and it was often the cause of great sorrow to myself.”
“However, it was nevertheless a fact that I had beheld a vision. I have thought since, that I felt much like Paul, when he made his defense before King Agrippa, and related the account of the vision he had when he saw a light, and heard a voice; but still there were but few who believed him; some said he was dishonest, others said he was mad; and he was ridiculed and reviled. But all this did not destroy the reality of his vision. He had seen a vision, he knew he had, and all the persecution under heaven could not make it otherwise; and though they should persecute him unto death, yet he knew, and would know to his latest breath, that he had both seen a light and heard a voice speaking unto him, and all the world could not make him think or believe otherwise.”
“So it was with me. I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two Personages; and they did in reality speak to me; and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision, yet it was true; and while they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all manner of evil against me falsely for so saying, I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a vision; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually seen? For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.”
“I had now got my mind satisfied so far as the sectarian world was concerned-that it was not my duty to join with any of them, but to continue as I was until further directed. I had found the testimony of James to be true—that a man who lacked wisdom might ask of God, and obtain, and not be upbraided.” ( Joseph Smith–History, 1:8–26.)
I agree that Jesus Christ is the Only Son of God in the Flesh.
I agree that God is Eternal Spirit. Jesus Christ was flesh and blood, so therefore, God was also Flesh and Blood. Furthermore, Jesus only does that which He sees the Father Do. Jesus has a resurrected body of Flesh and Bone, therefore the Father must as well. Man was originally created after this image.
The Father and the Son both have Etnernal Spirit clothed with Flesh and Bone. The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit only.
Your beliefs have their foundations in ancient Greek philosphies regarding the sinfulness of matter, to include flesh.
I also agree.
Also agree.
Satan is a fallen angel. The Bible also clearly teaches that our Father in Heaven is the Father of spirits (Heb 12:9). Satan is a spirit. Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God in the Flesh. Satan is in no way "co-equal."
a phrase not to be found anywhere in the standard works of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Wrong, this is not our belief.
Jesus was "in the beginning" with His Father. In God's plane of existence, there is truly no beginning or end, how could Jesus then truly have a beginning?
Again, God is the Father of spirits. (Heb 12:9)
God was never a "mere" man. However, Jesus did state that He only does that which he sees the Father do. Jesus was a man, though never a "mere" man as He is also God.
You don't grasp LDS doctrine. God is God of the entire universe. Certainly, he also 'standeth in the congregation of the mighty and judgeth among the gods." (Psalms 82:1)
Those "unto whom the word came" are already called gods (Psalms 82:1, 6-7, John 10:34-35), and yes, children do grow up to become like their parents. We happen to be children of God.
You are entiled to your opinion, though you have misrepresented us.
It is more than belief that defines a "Christian." One also has to know Christ. John gave us the yardstick by which we may know if we know Him. "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments." (1 John 2:3)
How about if you strive more on bearing appropriate witness and less on stigmatizing those that do not fit your definition of "Christian?"
I am Christian. I know Christ lives. He is my Savior and my God. His Gospel plan is true. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
This is your problem, my friend, and why I say you are not a Christian. You do not know the true Christ of the Bible.
It is your privilege to believe what you believe, but based upon what you have posted here, we do NOT believe in the same Jesus. How, then, do you find fault when we object when you take the name "Christian."
Do you not agree that the term Christian as it has been used throughout the ages is founded upon doctrines totally foreign to those of the LDS Church? The God of Christianity (the Father) was never flesh and blood. Again, you have the right to believe that He did, but so believing places you far outside the realm of Christianity! We CANNOT take the same name when our beliefs are so radically different on the very foundational issues!
Do you believe in a mother god who produces spirit children to occupy the bodies of children on this earth?
Do you believe that you can attain to godhood, inhabit a realm of your own, and with your wife produce spirit children?
Do you believe that Jesus was the spirit brother of Satan and that both were produced by a father god and mother god?
Do you believe that Jesus got His physical body through the "Father's" physical relations with Mary?
Do you believe that Jesus was simply a created being and is not co-equal to the Father?
How is Jesus your Savior? What did He do for you? Is all of your righteousness found only in Him or do you work to attain your salvation?
Your beliefs and the beliefs of mainstream Christianity are world's apart. Why won't Mormons accept that and take for themselves another name--a name more fitting their doctrines?
This is my opinion (and it is only an opinion). I believe that those in power of the Mormon Church realized that their doctrines were offensive to others so they sought a way to make themselves look like everyone else so that they would have an easier time proselytizing and winning over the unwary (thus bringing in money for their temples). It is advantageous to portray themselves as "Christians" rather than as a cult (which they were widely considered when I was young).
Again, I have nothing personal against you. But as a true follower of Christ, the Son of God, God of Very God, who came in the flesh, suffered and died, took God's wrath for my sins upon Himself, and made of me a new creation, I cannot and will not remain silent as others attempt to strip Him of His majesty, eternality, and total Deity. With the Father and the Holy Spirit, He spoke the world into being, created man from the dust of the Earth (knowing full-well what it would cost Him), left His matchless glory with the Father, condescended to a depth we will never understand, took upon Himself human flesh, was born of woman, and allowed Himself to be nurtured and cared for by ONE OF HIS OWN CREATION! He willingly took my place on that cross and allowed the Father to make of Him, the perfect, Eternal, unique Son, all the vileness and wretchedness of men. Having the power to come down from the cross, He stayed there for those whom He loved because there was no other way to bring salvation.
Having enjoyed perfect fellowship with the Father throughout all eternity past, He found Himself a thing of wrath. It was not the stripes; it was not the crown; it was not the mocking and the contempt of sinful men that broke His heart and caused Him to shed drops of blood. It was having the entire force of God's wrath cast down upon Him. He was alone in a sense that no man will ever know--rejected of men and rejected of His Father--He died alone! That's MY Jesus. That's the Christ of the Bible and of Christianity. Having given all for me, I will defend His honor and His name with every breath I take.
Mormonism is NOT Christian since it does not portray the Jesus Christ so clearly presented in the Bible. I wish Mormon authorities would simply find another name more fitting to their beliefs.
Straight from the horses mouth--(taken from lds.com/churchhistory)--all emphasis mine
This doesn't address the issue. Yes, Joseph Smith was told that the creeds were an abomination and that the "professors" were "corrupt." (BTW, Preterist, what do you know about the churches and "professors" in Palmyra, NY, in 1820?) But Joseph Smith and all other leaders since him have clearly accepted all other churches as being Christian. And they have said many, many positive things about other Christian groups, their beliefs, and their practices.
This is nothing more than quote mining on your part. This quote (and a few more you can dig up if you look at anti-Mormon sites) does not accurately express either current or former LDS views of other Christian groups. It needs to be taken in context with all the other things LDS leaders have said and it needs to be taken in its own context.
Thank you for sharing the account of the appearance of the Father and the Son to Joseph Smith from Joseph Smith's History. Though I did not examine it closely word for word, it did appear to be accurate...
Joseph Smith—History 1 is another source others can go to in order to read more of the account if they are interested.
Jesus Christ came to earth in large part to teach us Who the Father is. Jesus taught us this in Every action, Every word, and even his Very image.
Sadly, today much of "Christianity" still just doesn't get it... in large part due to the precepts and philosophies of men.
You may chose to reject the witness of a prophet of God, but this doesn't make it any less true.
I have already clearly shown in a previous post that you have blatantly misrepresented our beliefs. This is not the action of a "true follower of Christ" as you claim to be in your most recent post.
[quote=urbanlemur;6129266]the Book of Mormon has gone through changes over the years yet it is considered complete.
As a former mormon you know as well as i do that the book of mormon isnt considered complete,that a large portion of the plates remained sealed by God to be unsealed at a later time .
This is your problem, my friend, and why I say you are not a Christian.
You are basing your assertion on a faulty and personal definition of the word "Christian."
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You do not know the true Christ of the Bible.
But I do, despite any protestations on your part to the contrary.
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It is your privilege to believe what you believe, but based upon what you have posted here, we do NOT believe in the same Jesus. How, then, do you find fault when we object when you take the name "Christian."
Because whether or not we agree on all of Jesus' attributes, we both qualify absolutely and unequivocally as "Christian."
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Do you not agree that the term Christian as it has been used throughout the ages is founded upon doctrines totally foreign to those of the LDS Church?
Absolutely not.
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The God of Christianity (the Father) was never flesh and blood.
Many early Christians would have disagreed with you, including Augustine's mother, Saint Monica. In fact, one of the reasons Augustine was initially disinclined to accept Christianity was that he didn't believe that God was corporeal. It wasn't until he learned from a Hellenized Christian philosopher that "educated" Christians could believe in a Platonic type of non-corporeal God that Augustine started looking at Christianity seriously.
You need to read more. I'll give you links if you want...
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Again, you have the right to believe that He did, but so believing places you far outside the realm of Christianity!
Clearly it is neither foreign to ancient Christianity, nor is it relevant to determining if one is a Christian or not.
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We CANNOT take the same name when our beliefs are so radically different on the very foundational issues!
Then you need to pick another one. For almost 2,000 years the word "Christian" has applied to all groups claiming to be founded on Jesus or His teachings, regardless of details. Marcionites, Ebionites, and every other early heresy were all considered Christians.
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Do you believe ...
Some yes, and some no. Mostly no.
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Your beliefs and the beliefs of mainstream Christianity are world's apart.
In some ways. In other ways outsiders can't tell us apart.
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Why won't Mormons accept that and take for themselves another name--a name more fitting their doctrines?
Because we are Christian and we have been classified as Christian since day 1. It is a great description of our religion and we are delighted to take on us the name of our Savior. In fact, we are commanded to do so.
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This is my opinion (and it is only an opinion).
And a wrong one to boot...
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I believe that those in power of the Mormon Church realized that their doctrines were offensive to others so they sought a way to make themselves look like everyone else so that they would have an easier time proselytizing and winning over the unwary (thus bringing in money for their temples).
Demonstrably false on many levels. LDS Christians have claimed to be Christian from the beginning and have maintained that believe unwavering ever since. Nothing has changed except that in the cult-fanaticism of the mid/late 20th century some rabid anti-Mormons started trying to steal the label of "Christian" for their own uses. And you clear know approximately zero about temples, money collection, and the history of both.
Why are you making this stuff up?
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It is advantageous to portray themselves as "Christians" rather than as a cult (which they were widely considered when I was young).
So you were brainwashed as a child? You simply are incredibly ignorant about the history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the counter-cult movement of the 20th century. This is sad...
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Again, I have nothing personal against you.
Nor I against you.
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But as a true follower of Christ, the Son of God, God of Very God, who came in the flesh, suffered and died, took God's wrath for my sins upon Himself, and made of me a new creation,
Which is exactly how I'd describe myself...
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I cannot and will not remain silent as others attempt to strip Him of His majesty, eternality, and total Deity.
Then we agree on this.
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With the Father and the Holy Spirit, He spoke the world into being, created man from the dust of the Earth (knowing full-well what it would cost Him), left His matchless glory with the Father, condescended to a depth we will never understand, took upon Himself human flesh, was born of woman, and allowed Himself to be nurtured and cared for by ONE OF HIS OWN CREATION! He willingly took my place on that cross and allowed the Father to make of Him, the perfect, Eternal, unique Son, all the vileness and wretchedness of men. Having the power to come down from the cross, He stayed there for those whom He loved because there was no other way to bring salvation.
Perfect Mormon doctrine. All of it. Maybe you should become a Mormon.
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Having enjoyed perfect fellowship with the Father throughout all eternity past, He found Himself a thing of wrath. It was not the stripes; it was not the crown; it was not the mocking and the contempt of sinful men that broke His heart and caused Him to shed drops of blood. It was having the entire force of God's wrath cast down upon Him. He was alone in a sense that no man will ever know--rejected of men and rejected of His Father--He died alone! That's MY Jesus.
Mine, too!! Are you a closet Mormon?
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That's the Christ of the Bible and of Christianity. Having given all for me, I will defend His honor and His name with every breath I take.
Me, too! Welcome, brother!
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Mormonism is NOT Christian since it does not portray the Jesus Christ so clearly presented in the Bible.
Wow. You clearly don't know what LDS Christians believe then.
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I wish Mormon authorities would simply find another name more fitting to their beliefs.
"Christian" seems to fit us to a tee. We'll keep that name which we've had from the beginning. If you feel the need to classify various Christian groups, which is something we all need to do from time to time, you can distinguish between "Evangelical Christians," "Roman Catholic Christians," "LDS Christians," "Protestant Christians," "Orthodox Christians," and lots of others.
And if you want to stress our differences, you are okay calling us "heretical Christians."
Because we are Christian and we have been classified as Christian since day 1. It is a great description of our religion and we are delighted to take on us the name of our Savior. In fact, we are commanded to do so.
According to the Journal of Discourses, Vol.6, p.167. (John Taylor, 3rd President of the Church.), early Mormons did not want to call themselves Christians. They were delighted to be different to Christianity and all the churches, which they thought were apostate.
According to the Journal of Discourses, Vol.6, p.167. (John Taylor, 3rd President of the Church.), early Mormons did not want to call themselves Christians. They were delighted to be different to Christianity and all the churches, which they thought were apostate.
And there are a hundred quotes from the time to the contrary.
Like I said, you can't quote mine to prove your point. In a few sermons the speaker would engage in hyperbole and emphasize the differences between the LDS Church and other denominations by claiming one or the other "wasn't Christian." But from the beginning and continuously, the LDS Church, its leaders, and its members considered themselves absolutely Christian.
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You simply are incredibly ignorant about the history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the counter-cult movement of the 20th century. This is sad... 
