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One of the most logical things I've read online, in a long time. Understand that I am a rapidly deconverting Christian... so I'm not totally against Christianity. However, I do want to see what Christians have to say about this post.
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Christians usually liken God to a doting parent who’s concerned for the eternal welfare of his children. Okay, let’s pursue that idea in detail.
Responsible parents assess their children’s capabilities and focus on creating a safe play environment. Unsafe items are placed well out of reach or locked away to eliminate the temptation altogether. They actively monitor their children’s activities and intervene before things get out of control. And during extended absences, guardianship is entrusted to caregivers with like-minded goals and values.
Loving parents provide guidance, teach self-discipline, offer encouragement, acknowledge honest efforts, praise achievements, and most importantly, model the behaviors they want their children to adopt. They have reasonable expectations, set appropriate rules and guidelines, communicate them clearly, and apply them with fairness and consistency. Physical punishment is eschewed in favor of disciplinary measures that re-enforce an understanding of the connection between actions and consequences.
So with that in mind, how does God stack up as a parent?
Well, based on the Genesis narrative, he comes across as the type of father who tosses his kids a pack of cigarettes, warns them not to smoke and sends in a smooth-talking tobacco lobbyist to test their resolve.
In other words: If God were a human parent, we’d be calling Child Protective Services.
God's creation such as the angels and the first man and woman were created with the ability to obey God perfectly. However, it was also possible for them to decide not to obey and rebel.
That's what can happen when you bring sentient beings to life and not robots.
Scripture tells us that Adam was not deceived. Apparently he cared less for the God that gave him everything for a happy life and favored a lie.
God's creation such as the angels and the first man and woman were created with the ability to obey God perfectly. However, it was also possible for them to decide not to obey and rebel.
That's what can happen when you bring sentient beings to life and not robots.
Scripture tells us that Adam was not deceived. Apparently he cared less for the God that gave him everything for a happy life and favored a lie.
Yes, God created beings with the ability to chose. Either obey (and it was a simple request, don't eat) or disobey. That simple test would show what was in their heart, love for their creator or love for themselves.
Adam failed to love God. Jesus showed it was possible to love and obey God, even when tempted with things that have appealed to man since Adam's day, right to the point of death. He did it, Adam could have and we can.
One of the most logical things I've read online, in a long time. Understand that I am a rapidly deconverting Christian... so I'm not totally against Christianity. However, I do want to see what Christians have to say about this post.
- - - - - -
Christians usually liken God to a doting parent who’s concerned for the eternal welfare of his children. Okay, let’s pursue that idea in detail.
Responsible parents assess their children’s capabilities and focus on creating a safe play environment. Unsafe items are placed well out of reach or locked away to eliminate the temptation altogether. They actively monitor their children’s activities and intervene before things get out of control. And during extended absences, guardianship is entrusted to caregivers with like-minded goals and values.
Loving parents provide guidance, teach self-discipline, offer encouragement, acknowledge honest efforts, praise achievements, and most importantly, model the behaviors they want their children to adopt. They have reasonable expectations, set appropriate rules and guidelines, communicate them clearly, and apply them with fairness and consistency. Physical punishment is eschewed in favor of disciplinary measures that re-enforce an understanding of the connection between actions and consequences.
So with that in mind, how does God stack up as a parent?
Well, based on the Genesis narrative, he comes across as the type of father who tosses his kids a pack of cigarettes, warns them not to smoke and sends in a smooth-talking tobacco lobbyist to test their resolve.
In other words: If God were a human parent, we’d be calling Child Protective Services.
How does that perspective change should you consider that God INTENDED for Adam and Eve to sin?
After all that is the reality. God knows the end from the beginning. God knew Adam and Eve were going to sin and intended for it to happen. But it still had to be a decision that they made of their own choice and lusts. They still had to be guilty according to their own knowledge and action. You see God holds us accountable because our minds bear witness that are guilty but God holds Himself Responsible.
God's Responsiblity will end with all being eventually saved. None lost. But until that time Sin has a place.
Where do you get the idea that Lucifer was an Angel?...Where do you get the idea that he became HaSatan?...Jews do not believe in original sin, man was created with the capacity to do good or do evil, the choice is up to the individual...So, in reference to HaSatan, it is a metaphor for the inclinations of the dark side of the flesh...To serve HaSatan is to serve the flesh...
Lucifer’s fall is described in two key Old Testament chapters—Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14.
It would seem from the context of Ezekiel 28 that the first ten verses of this chapter are dealing with a human leader. Then, starting in verse 11 and on through verse 19, Lucifer is the focus of discussion.
What is the rationale for the conclusion that these latter verses refer to the fall of Lucifer? Whereas the first ten verses in this chapter speak about the ruler of Tyre (who was condemned for claiming to be a god though he was just a man), the discussion moves to the king of Tyre starting in verse 11. Many scholars believe that though there was a human “ruler” of Tyre, the real “king” of Tyre was Satan, for it was he who was ultimately at work in this anti-God city and it was he who worked through the human ruler of the city.
Some have suggested that these verses may actually be dealing with a human king of Tyre who was empowered by Satan. Perhaps the historic king of Tyre was a tool of Satan, possibly even indwelt by him. In describing this king, Ezekiel also gives us glimpses of the superhuman creature, Satan, who was using, if not indwelling, him.
Now, there are things that are true of this “king” that—at least ultimately—cannot be said to be true of human beings. For example, the king is portrayed as having a different nature from man (he is a cherub, verse 14, and cherubs are an order of angels); he had a different position from man (he was blameless and sinless, verse 15); he was in a different realm from man (the holy mount of God, verses 13,14); he received a different judgment from man (he was cast out of the mountain of God and thrown to the earth, verse 16); and the superlatives used to describe him don’t seem to fit that of a normal human being (“full of wisdom,” “perfect in beauty,” and having “the seal of perfection,” verse 12 NASB).
Our text tells us that this king was a created being and left the creative hand of God in a perfect state (Ezekiel 28:12,15). And he remained perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him (verse 15b). What was this iniquity? We read in verse 17, “Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor.” Lucifer apparently became so impressed with his own beauty, intelligence, power, and position that he began to desire for himself the honor and glory that belonged to God alone. The sin that corrupted Lucifer was self-generated pride and vanity.
Apparently, this represents the actual beginning of sin in the universe—preceding the fall of the human Adam by an indeterminate time. Sin originated in the free will of Lucifer in which—with full understanding of the issues involved—he chose to rebel against the Creator.
This mighty angelic being was rightfully judged by God: “I threw you to the earth” (Ezekiel 28:18). This doesn’t mean that Satan had no further access to heaven, for other Scripture verses clearly indicate that Satan maintained this access even after his fall (Job 1:6-12; Zechariah 3:1,2). However, Ezekiel 28:18 indicates that Satan was absolutely and completely cast out of God’s heavenly government and his place of authority (Luke 10:18).
Lucifer’s fall is described in two key Old Testament chapters—Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14.
It would seem from the context of Ezekiel 28 that the first ten verses of this chapter are dealing with a human leader. Then, starting in verse 11 and on through verse 19, Lucifer is the focus of discussion.
What is the rationale for the conclusion that these latter verses refer to the fall of Lucifer? Whereas the first ten verses in this chapter speak about the ruler of Tyre (who was condemned for claiming to be a god though he was just a man), the discussion moves to the king of Tyre starting in verse 11. Many scholars believe that though there was a human “ruler” of Tyre, the real “king” of Tyre was Satan, for it was he who was ultimately at work in this anti-God city and it was he who worked through the human ruler of the city.
Some have suggested that these verses may actually be dealing with a human king of Tyre who was empowered by Satan. Perhaps the historic king of Tyre was a tool of Satan, possibly even indwelt by him. In describing this king, Ezekiel also gives us glimpses of the superhuman creature, Satan, who was using, if not indwelling, him.
Now, there are things that are true of this “king” that—at least ultimately—cannot be said to be true of human beings. For example, the king is portrayed as having a different nature from man (he is a cherub, verse 14, and cherubs are an order of angels); he had a different position from man (he was blameless and sinless, verse 15); he was in a different realm from man (the holy mount of God, verses 13,14); he received a different judgment from man (he was cast out of the mountain of God and thrown to the earth, verse 16); and the superlatives used to describe him don’t seem to fit that of a normal human being (“full of wisdom,” “perfect in beauty,” and having “the seal of perfection,” verse 12 NASB).
Our text tells us that this king was a created being and left the creative hand of God in a perfect state (Ezekiel 28:12,15). And he remained perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him (verse 15b). What was this iniquity? We read in verse 17, “Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor.” Lucifer apparently became so impressed with his own beauty, intelligence, power, and position that he began to desire for himself the honor and glory that belonged to God alone. The sin that corrupted Lucifer was self-generated pride and vanity.
Apparently, this represents the actual beginning of sin in the universe—preceding the fall of the human Adam by an indeterminate time. Sin originated in the free will of Lucifer in which—with full understanding of the issues involved—he chose to rebel against the Creator.
This mighty angelic being was rightfully judged by God: “I threw you to the earth” (Ezekiel 28:18). This doesn’t mean that Satan had no further access to heaven, for other Scripture verses clearly indicate that Satan maintained this access even after his fall (Job 1:6-12; Zechariah 3:1,2). However, Ezekiel 28:18 indicates that Satan was absolutely and completely cast out of God’s heavenly government and his place of authority (Luke 10:18).
Both are speaking about a Nation...It is metaphorical...One cannot read this with preconceived notions...It is written that sin is not permitted in G-d's presence, however, HaSatan was there in Job...
Children today are fallible with that sinful nature. So are the parents. If we truly watched every parent 24/7, everybody's kids would be taken away; and not for the better either, because no one can pass their society's parental litmus test.
Adam & Eve were adults. God had spoken to Adam regarding the forbidden fruit before Eve was created, and so Eve heard this from Adam which was why she doubted His words as it was Eve that led Adam to sin as Satan did to Eve. This chalking up to free will.
Now we know what is good and evil because we are living the results of that sin as there is nothing good outside of God and the will of God. And according to His word, we are dying as death is the end result of this poison called sin as sin continues to drive us away from the Holy God as corruption increases where after death, comes the second death of complete separation from God and all that is good, the lake of fire because evil has reached its full fruitation of the point of no returning to God.
What you should be zeroing in on is how much God loved us to send His Son to die for us to bring us back to living with God and all that is good.
Remember the darkness that covered the earth at the time of His crucifixion? There was no eclipse as it was fathomed by Thallus, a secular historian, but corrected by Julius Africanus, another historian.
Matthew 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mark 15:33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. 34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Luke 23:44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
That was Jesus taking our sins upon Himself; our Creator as the light of the world, taking our sins and thus expereincing that separation from God the Father as that separation was made visible in creation as darkness was over the earth by our Creator taking our sins upon Himself so that we may be made the righteousness of God in Him.
2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Brother, try leaning on the Good Shepherd, the Lord Jesus Christ at that throne of grace to find the answers you seek rather than looking to man for excuses not to believe.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Both are speaking about a Nation...It is metaphorical...One cannot read this with preconceived notions...It is written that sin is not permitted in G-d's presence, however, HaSatan was there in Job...
Your statement, "Both are speaking about a Nation...etc." sound like you already have a preconceived notion. By what authority do you make this statement, and please reference it's source.
Furthermore, where does it say "sin is not premitted in God's presence"? God is Omnipresent, so it stands to reason that He can be around sin. God cannot look upon sin, but He can be present with it.
If God could not be in the presence of sin, then we would all be doomed as God would not be able to send His Holy Spirit to dwell in us, for we all are sinners.
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