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Christ is still reigning on the New Earth since He and God are on the throne
Rev_22:1 And he shows me a river of water of life, resplendent as crystal, issuing out of the throne of God and the Lambkin."
Rev_22:3 And there shall be no more any doom, and the throne of God and of the Lambkin shall be in it. And His slaves shall be offering divine service to Him."
Since Christ is still reigning on the new earth, we know there are still "sovereignties, authorities and powers and death" (see 1 Cor.15:22-28). Therefore death is not done away yet. Death is done away as are sovereignties, authorities and power BEFORE Christ abdicates the throne. The phrase "death shall be no more" has to do with those in the New City Jerusalem.
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I gave seven examples of Revelation using the phrase translated as “for ever and ever” applied to God. If as you say all the evers end then so does God. Now that is one weird theology. If those in the new earth die, again as you have it, then so do those in hell, especially since they do not have the tree of life to sustain them. Still no universalism.
Are you saying the eons/evers don't end as the Bible says they surely will?
And since the eons/aions/evers will end, why would God cease to exist?
If I say "I live for this football game this weekend" am I saying I will die when the football game is over?
And just where in the Bible does it say "God lives for the eon"?
Where does the Bible even say that "God lives for ever and ever"?
Here it is said of Jesus:
Rev 4:9 And whenever the animals should be giving glory and honor and thanks to Him Who is sitting on
the throne, Who is living for the eons of the eons (Amen!),
Rev 4:10 the twenty-four elders, also, will be falling before Him Who is sitting on the throne and will be worshiping Him Who is living for the eons of the eons (Amen!). And they are casting their wreaths before the throne, saying,
Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Will they and Christ die when the thousand years end? Will they die when the eons of the eons (mistranslated as "for ever and ever") when the eons/evers end?
When the thousand years ends, they and Christ reign on the New Earth as well. That thousand years is an eon. That eon/ever is going to end.
I am not an expert in languages. But I know enouph Hebrew that "leolam vaed" has the meaning of a world (age) without end = eternity. Laad is biblical Hebrew and means eternity. The word "od" = further comes from it, but the original meaning is without end. When a Jew speaks about the afterlife he says "Haolam haba" and he knows, that is a world without end=eternity. I know that the word "olam" tells us about a time in the past or the future "meolam" or "leolam" and time has usual a beginning and an end. But forever and ever is eternal, in Hebrew and also in Greek, it is the eternal God and so is His life etc. This is shown to you Ur folks again and again and you have no excuse, even an atheist told you, he is not biased, but neutral. But you say, Jesus payed the panalty of sin. That is right, but the bible tells us, that we cannot sin because of it, sin is still the cause of death, natural and spiritual. God is still the judge, and there is still sin to death, the bible is very clear of it. Now comes your argument that all will be saved. But the bible tells us that salvation is conditional (John 3:16) They that do not believe will perish. Shana is right, without Christ resurrection we would all perish, inspite Jesus sacrifice. Why you cannot see that faith in Christ is also nessasary for not perishing? That means "all" are they that believe and turn to the mighty God (Jesus). That is what all Israel will be saved means, a remnant that turns (converts) to the Mighty God (el gibor), we find in Isa 10:21; 9:6. The gospel of Jesus Christ is preached, that the Kingdom of God is at hand and all the world has to turn to the mighty God of Israel to be saved. Why should missionaries risk their lifes to save people? Why would Paul say that he would rather be blotted out of the book of life (as Moses asked), to save some Jews? In this light, Universalism makes no sense and is unbiblical.
This might be helpful to you in dispelling the notion that olam/aion/eon means "eternal."
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those
who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection
of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ
all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when
he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over
the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and
power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26
The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his
feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear
that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When
he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put
everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Paul says nothing about a second death.
Hi Alt. Thinker. I hope that you are having a good day. Paul is speaking about death. Death is death whether it is the first death or the second death and death is described as the last enemy. Why do you believe that it is described as the last enemy?
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He says death will be destroyed. That is the case when the second resurrection
takes place. No one will ever die again. Jesus will judge everyone. The
righteous will go to eternal life in the new Jerusalem where God will dwell
among his people forever. The unrighteous will go to the second death in hell
which will last for ever and ever. If you have any doubts that the Greek phrase
used in Revelation really means for ever and ever, see my recent post to
Eusebius where I list the seven times in Revelation it is used with respect to
God.
I understand your interpretation or understanding, but many believers do not have the same interpretation or understanding. Paul tells us in 1 Cor. 15 that all will be made alive in Jesus Christ. As I shared earlier, this is referring to all people who have died in Adam. The same all who died in Adam (all of us) will be made alive (zoopooieo)=primarily in the NT raising the dead to life, generally used in reference to salvation answering to the Pauline connection between righteousness and life.
The same all who died and became sinners in Adam will live and become righteous in Jesus Christ.(just not all at the same time ) I will come back to reference your passages concerning the phrase "forever and forever"
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The last enemy is death and no one will ever die again. The fate of
everyone for eternity has been settled. Jesus now “has put everything
under his
feet”. That quote is from Psalms. Let’s look at it.
Quote:
Psalm 8
4
what is mankind that you are mindful of them,
human
beings that you care
for them?
5 You have made them a little lower than
the angels
and
crowned them with glory and honor.
6 You made them rulers over the works of
your hands;
you put everything under their feet:
7 all flocks and
herds,
and the animals of the wild,
8 the birds in
the sky,
and the fish in the
sea,
all that swim the paths of the seas.
To put everything under the feet of Jesus is to have Jesus rule over
them.
Yes. All things will be in subjection to Him, meaning that there will be no one who is not under subjection to Him.
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He has done that in the judgment that followed the 1000 year reign of Jesus.
The
reign of Jesus is now over and God and the new Jerusalem descend from
heaven.
Quote:
Revelation
21
5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!”
Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and
true.”
6
He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and
the
End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the
water
of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be
their
God and they will be my children.8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the
vile,
the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the
idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning
sulfur. This is the second death.”
After describing the new Jerusalem, the vision ends and Jesus is talking in
the present to John. (“It is done” refers to the vision.) Here is where Jesus
talks about making everything new. He reiterates what was described in the
vision, that the righteous will be rewarded with life, inheriting the new
Jerusalem. But the unrighteous will get the second death in the lake of fire. To
repeat, God the Father has already come to rule in the new Jerusalem, as just
described. The righteous are there. The unrighteous are in hell. Not a word
about that changing.
I don't see anything about anyone being in hell here, Alt. Thinker. I believe that when God says that He is making all things new, that this also includes those who are cast into the lake of fire. As I shared before, the lake of fire has to do with destruction and also purification. All things does not exclude anything. I also believe that all will not inherit the kingdom. There are two groups- those who are believers (including the overcomers) and those who will be caused to become believers. Eventually all will be believe and all will give Him the praise. The lake of fire is a part of this process. If God will make all things new, there will be some changing going on those who are cast into the lake of fire.
Ps 67:1-7 God be gracious [ed., grace to us] to us and bless us, and cause His face to shine upon us, that Thy way may be known on the earth, Thy salvation among all nations...Let all the peoples praise Thee. Let the nations be glad...for Thou wilt judge the peoples with uprightness, and guide the nations on the earth...that all the ends of the earth may fear Him.
Ps 86:9 All nations whom Thou hast made shall come and worship before Thee, O Lord; And they shall glorify Thy name.
Zeph 3:8-9 Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out on them My indignation, all My burning anger; for all the earth will be devoured by the fire of My zeal. For then I will give to the peoples purified lips, that all of them may call on the name of the Lord, to serve Him shoulder to shoulder
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You mentioned Ephesians 1. I believe this is what you meant. “ to be put into
effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in
heaven and on earth under Christ” (Eph 1:10]
Heaven and earth are united when God and the new Jerusalem descend from
heaven and God dwells among his people. Notice that hell is NOT united. Notice
also that is says Christ, who was responsible for bringing this all about
(“bring unity”) and who will now submit to God the Father. The times are
fulfilled and unity achieved at the end of the reign of Jesus. The unrighteous
have just been sent to hell and unity of heaven and earth accomplished. This
verse does not refer to anything happening beyond that point.
My understanding is that there will come a time when God will reunite all things in Christ, all things in heaven and all things on earth. And this includes those whom you say are in hell.
Epheisians 1:9
having made known to us the secret of His will, according to His good pleasure, that He purposed in Himself,
10 in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to *bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- in him;
11 in whom also we did obtain an inheritance, being foreordained according to the purpose of Him who the all things is working according to the counsel of His will,
(Young's Literal)
It is believed that God's plan is to reunite all things in Christ, both things in the heavens and things on the earth.
to bring into one=anakephalaioomai=to be reduced to a head or sum total. In the mid voice-to gather together again in one, to reunite under one head (as in Ephesians 1:10) source-Hebrew Greek Key Word Study Bible
In Ephesians 1:10 God is said ἀνακεφαλαιώσασθαι τά πάντα ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ, to bring together again for himself (note the middle) all things and beings (hitherto disunited by sin) into one combined state of fellowship in Christ, the universal bond (cf. Meyer or Ellicott on Ephesians, the passage cited); (Protevangelium Jacobi 13εἰς ἐμέ ἀνεκεφαλαιώθη ἡ ἱστορία Ἀδάμ, where cf. Thilo).
The same all who were made for Jesus as described in Colossians 1 will be reunited in Him. He has been made heir of all according to Hebrews 1.
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You also mentioned every knee bowing. Here it is in context.
Quote:
Romans
14
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you
treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every
knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”
12 So
then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.
This is about the judgment. Of course every knee will bow. Everyone will be
subjected to judgment. The quote is from Isaiah
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Isaiah
45
22 “Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.
23 By myself I have
sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not
be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will
swear.
24 They will say of me, ‘In the LORD alone
are deliverance and
strength.’” All who have raged against him will come to him and be put to shame.
The righteous will be saved, the unrighteous will not. This does not say
anything about those sent to hell going to heaven.
That every knee will bow refers to worship in the Greek (kampto) and the passage in Isaish tells us that everyone will swear allegiance to Him. The word for "swear" is "Shaba" = to swear, to confirm with an oath, to bind by an oath, to confirm with an oath.
This tells me that all people will one day swear allegiance to Him. Being put to shame is a part of this process. People must be broken/humbled and realize that they are in need of a Savior before they will embrace Him as their Savior.
Rev. 21
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth did pass away, and the sea is not any more;
2 and I, John, saw the holy city -- new Jerusalem -- coming down from God out of the heaven, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband;
3 and I heard a great voice out of the heaven, saying, `Lo, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them -- their God,
4 and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and the death shall not be any more, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor shall there be any more pain, because the first things did go away.'
5 And He who is sitting upon the throne said, `Lo, new I make all things; and He saith to me, `Write, because these words are true and stedfast;'
Here we see that God will tabernacle with men and He will be their God. If eternal hell is true, people will be in misery forever , but here see that there will be no more sorrow, no more crying, and no more pain. Also "lo, new I make all things" is what the One sitting on the throne says. He does not say that He makes all new things. He says "Lo, new I make all things" In some translations it reads , " I make all things new." God tears down and destroys and then He restores. He destroys sin and brings life. He destroys death to bring life to all
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Rather than saying more than Revelation, it looks like Paul is in full
agreement
Yes, I agree that Paul is in agreement with Revelation and I believe that He takes us further in showing us that all people will be made alive in Jesus Christ. The Revelator does not show us the final condition of those who are cast into the lake of fire. Paul does.
Romans 8
"8 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, [i]in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body."
hope = elpis=expection
Paul tells us that there is promise for the creation of God. And no one is excluded from the creation of God.
If all are to be reunited in Christ, there will be universal salvation. If the creation is to be delivered from the slavery to corruption and changed into the freedom of the glory of the sons of God, there will be universal salvation. Salvation means deliverance and healing and that is what this broken creation will have. What happened in the creation when Adam sinned will be totally undone because of what Jesus Christ has done. God bless.
.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-11-2014 at 06:09 AM..
There are so many levels associated with the second death to me and maybe those who believe in the restoration of all to God through Jesus Christ can explore this on another thread. Just thinking. God bless.
Hi Zur... just thought i would make a short response to this:
Agreed
Agreed
Agreed. But I would add that faith can also save you after you have perished. All who sin are already spiritually dead and perished. Jesus came to save those who are apollumi [lost/dead/perished].
Here is where I disagree Zur. It means all WILL believe and turn to the mighty God. Here is one reason I believe this:
Psalm 22:27-29
All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and
All the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship:
All they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
How many go down to the dust? All without exception.
In Romans 11 "Israel" does not refer to all who believe. "Israel" is divided into two groups in that chapter: (1) the elect/remnant (who believe) and (2) the enemies of the gospel (who don't believe) who are cut off. Nevertheless, it says "all Israel will be saved". Will they be saved in unbelief? No, of course not. They will "remember and turn to the Lord".
Agreed
It makes sense if you understand that there is no automatic ticket salvation. Everyone has to repent and obey the gospel.
We agree on many points, no automatic ticket salvation, everyone has to repent and obey the gospel. We disagree what happens after people die, but not many died and know. I agree also, that unbelievers and believers (who commit sins to death) are spiritually dead. If they do not repent they are lost and perish, but so long they live they can come to the knowledge of the truth and repent, so long they live they did not yet perish. But everyone that goes to helll knows that he does not get out there, they tell Jesus that they want to repent, but Jesus says, it is too late, He can do nothing for them. God's judgement, the death panalty has been spoken, their destiny is already final, as is the eternal salvation of the ones that die in Christ and are in Heaven.This two groups have judged themselves already through faith on Christ or by rejecting Him. But there is a third group that goes to the dust (grave) and sleeps there till the second resurrection (this includes all that died from Adam till the resurrection of Christ, and they will be judged according their works, some go to eternal life and some to eternal punishment). I believe that the saints of the OT are resurrected after Christ as the First fruits and are now in Heaven. But that is not important. Not all Israel is Israel. The true Israel are the believers, the saints that are now in Heaven and on earth, they will be united at the second coming of Christ in Him. All Israel according to Jesajah are a remnant, it says only a remnant will convert to Christ. All they that go to the dust does not mean that all go there, context is important to understand scripture. All false doctrines take some scriptures and the rest they have to "harmonize", sometimes they have to ignor them, in this thread the words "for ever and ever" are an example.
I've addressed this here. I will be happy to address sincere and informed concerns with specific aspects of that post, but I'm not going to waste my time with Eusebius and anyone else who only has "Nu-uh!" to add.
There has been many threads about this topic, but people keep opening new ones.
The exact same Greek phrase - eis tous aionas ton aionon – appears a number of
times in Revelation.
Hebrews 1
In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets,
2 in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;
Remember that God created the ages through Jesus Christfor a specific purpose with all leading up to the final glorious ages. This is why He is referred to as the eonian God or the God of the ages. God exists outside of the ages, but yet He created the ages through Jesus Christ and He exists throughout all ages, unto the ages of the ages. This does not mean that He stops living when the ages are finished, as Eusebius shared, but the focus is on the ages. He is focused on the goal. This is when He becomes all in all as Paul tells us in 1 Cor. 15. We are not use to thinking in terms of the ages because of incorrect translations of the phrase but this is the literal Biblical language.
eis tous aionas ton aionon
Literal translation: Unto (or into) the eons of the eons.
King James Version: for ever and ever.
Zondervan Parallel NT in Greek and English unto the ages of the ages.
Young's Literal Translation: to the ages of the ages.
Concordant Literal New Testament: for the eons of the eons.
The more literal translations (Young's Literal) is in blue.
Rev 1:6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
6 and did make us kings and priests to his God and Father, to him [is] the glory and the power to the ages of the ages! Amen.
Rev 1:18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever!
18 and he who is living, and I did become dead, and, lo, I am living to the ages of the ages. Amen! and I have the keys of the hades and of the death.( to = unto/into/for according to the Greek)
Rev 4:9-10 Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever.
9 and when the living creatures do give glory, and honour, and thanks, to Him who is sitting upon the throne, who is living to the ages of the ages,
Rev 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
13 and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, `To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, [is] the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might -- to the ages of the ages!'
Rev 7:11-12 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!"
11 And all the messengers stood around the throne, and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell upon their face, and bowed before God,
12 saying, `Amen! the blessing, and the glory, and the wisdom, and the thanksgiving, and the honour, and the power, and the strength, [are] to our God -- to the ages of the ages! Amen!'
Rev 10:5-6
5 Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. 6 And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, "There will be no more delay!
And the messenger whom I saw standing upon the sea, and upon the land, did lift up his hand to the heaven,
6 and did swear in Him who doth live to the ages of the ages, who did create the heaven and the things in it, and the land and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it -- that time shall not be yet,
Rev 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
"The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever."
15 And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, `The kingdoms of the world did become [those] of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!
Rev 15:7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever.
Rev. 15: 7 and one of the four living creatures did give to the seven messengers seven golden vials, full of the wrath of God, who is living to the ages of the ages
Rev 22:5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.
Rev. 22:5
and night shall not be there, and they have no need of a lamp and light of a sun, because the Lord God doth give them light, and they shall reign -- to the ages of the ages.
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If I say "I live for this football game this weekend" am I saying
I will die when the football game is over?
Yes.
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-11-2014 at 07:18 AM..
Because there are a lot of dogmatists here who have more conviction that knowledge.
Because you say it, it must be so.
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) I will come back to reference your passages concerning the phrase "forever and forever"
