Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Death was imparted to all through the sins of the first Adam. We are mortal at birth. And we will go on to die because of Adam's sin. We are not born mortal because we sinned. So if death is imputed to all of Adam's seed then why wouldn't life be imparted to all thanks to the 2nd Adam, Jesus Christ.
We are born again to transfer our inheritance from Adam/Corruption to Jesus / Incorruption. This is not an immediate change to incorruption. The Bible says that God imputes righteousness unto us. Until which time that we can be brought into the fullness of His image. The Passover and Pentecostal ages having passed we are now moving into the Age of Tabernacles. This is where the patient creation who has been waiting in eager anticipation for the manifestation of the Sons/Daughters of God rejoices.
If you do not understand the concept of Ages, then you are sorely disadvantaged to understand God's will and His plan.
You never mentioned the LXX. You just mentioned the Hebrew and how the translator misread the Hebrew text.
Oh I get it. I also get it you never mentioned anything about any LXX translator.
I brought up the LXX translation and he was responding to me saying that they misread the Hebrew word for "shame of thy youth" (since it looks similar to olam) and translated it incorrectly as the greek words that usually get translated into English as "everlasting contempt".
Death was imparted to all through the sins of the first Adam. We are mortal at birth. And we will go on to die because of Adam's sin. We are not born mortal because we sinned. So if death is imputed to all of Adam's seed then why wouldn't life be imparted to all thanks to the 2nd Adam, Jesus Christ.
We are born again to transfer our inheritance from Adam/Corruption to Jesus / Incorruption. This is not an immediate change to incorruption. The Bible says that God imputes righteousness unto us. Until which time that we can be brought into the fullness of His image. The Passover and Pentecostal ages having passed we are now moving into the Age of Tabernacles. This is where the patient creation who has been waiting in eager anticipation for the manifestation of the Sons/Daughters of God rejoices.
If you do not understand the concept of Ages, then you are sorely disadvantaged to understand God's will and His plan.
Dear Sons of Zadok, I fully agree with your first and last paragraphs. However the Bible never speaks of "Passover and Pentecostal ages" and knows of no "Age of Tabernacles." It does not have those concepts in the Scriptures. There may be a Pentecostal administration.
I brought up the LXX translation and he was responding to me saying that they misread the Hebrew word for "shame of thy youth" (since it looks similar to olam) and translated it incorrectly as the greek words that usually get translated into English as "everlasting contempt".
I know YOU did. But Daniel did not preface his remarks with that bit of information.
Besides Young and Rotherham here are a few more scholars that disagree with Daniel.
The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. R. F. Weymouth: Eternal: Greek: "aeonion," i.e., "of the ages." Etymologically this adjective, like others similarly formed, does not signify "during," but "belong to" the aeons or ages."
The Interpreter’s Dictionry of the Bible (vol. IV, p. 643): Time: The O.T. and the N.T. are not acquainted with the conception of eternity as timelessness. The O.T. has not developed a special term for "eternity." The word aion originally meant "vital force," "life," then "age," "lifetime."
Elliot’s Commentary on the Whole Bible (Matt. 25:46(. Everlasting punishment--life eternal. The two adjectives represent the same Greek word, aionios—it must be admitted that the Greek word which is rendered "eternal" does not, in itself, involve endlessness, but rather, duration, whether through an age or succession of ages, and that it is therefore applied in the N.T. to periods of time that have had both a beginning and ending (Rom. 16:25).
Hasting’s Dictionary of the New Testament (Vol. I, p. 542, art. Christ and the Gospels): Eternity. There is no word either in the O.T. Hebrew or the N.T. Greek to express the abstract idea of eternity. (Vol. III, p. 369): Eternal, everlasting—nonetheless "eternal" is misleading, inasmuch as it has come in the English to connote the idea of "endlessly existing," and thus to be practically a synonym for "everlasting." But this is not an adequate rendering of aionios which varies in meaning with the variations of the noun aion from which it comes. (p. 370):
The chronoios aioniois moreover, are not to be thought of as stretching backward everlastingly, as it is proved by the pro chronon aionion of II Tim. 1:9; Titus. 1:2. (Note: pro chronon aionion means "BEFORE times eonian." Since this Scripture tells us that there was time "before" eonian, eionian cannot possibly mean eternal, for nothing can be "before" eternity.)
The large Catholic Bible dictionary, The Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible (p. 693): ETERNITY: The Bible hardly speaks of eternity in the philosophical sense of infinite duration without beginning or end. The Hebrew word olam, which is used alone (Ps. 61:8; etc.) or with various prepositions (Gen. 3:22; etc.) in contexts where it is traditionally translated as ‘forever,’ means in itself no more than ‘for an indefinitely long period." Thus me olam does not mean ‘from eternity’ but ‘of old’ Gen. 6:4; etc.). In the N.T. aion is used as the equivalent of olam.
Dr. R. F. Weymouth, a translator who was adept in Greek, states in The New Testament in Modern Speech (p. 657), Eternal, Greek aeonion, i.e., of the ages: Etymologically this adjective, like others similarly formed does not signify, "during" but "belonging to" the aeons or ages.
Dr. Marvin Vincent, Word Studies of the New Testament (Vol. IV, p. 59). The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective in themselves carries the sense of "endless" or "everlasting.’ Anionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time.
Dr. F. W. Farrar, author of The Life of Christ and The Life and Word of St. Paul, as well as books about Greek grammar and syntax, writes in The Eternal Hope (p. 198), "That the adjective is applied to some things which are ‘endless’ does not, of course, for one moment prove that the word itself meant ‘endless;’ and to introduce this rendering into many passages would be utterly impossible and absurd."
Whoa...people who speak Greek and Hebrew that actually disagree with Daniel?!...(and all the traiditionist's scream) NOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooo!!
...Honestly, this whole "if you don't speak these languages well enough to read the bible in them, then your opinion on certain Greek and Hebrew words is worthless" argument is snobbish and bull. Yes, speaking the languages helps the understanding well beyond the lay persons, but if certain words are showing different meanings where it is impossible for it to mean what its translated as in another verse, one can use commonsense to see that there is an issue there.
Yes, it's possible to have words that have more than one meaning, but if some of those words are translated to favor a particular theology when there is a fair amount of proof against that meaning, that should be a red flag to any person regardless of their understanding of the original language. All that being said, given that most people don't speak the original languages here, Daniels input should still be seen as valuble, but certainly not unbiased...but it will likely just go back to one of those "my Greek scholars can beat up your Greek scholars" debates ;p
Last edited by Jrhockney; 11-05-2014 at 11:21 AM..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sons of Zadok Death was imparted to all through the sins of the first Adam. We are mortal at birth. And we will go on to die because of Adam's sin. We are not born mortal because we sinned. So if death is imputed to all of Adam's seed then why wouldn't life be imparted to all thanks to the 2nd Adam, Jesus Christ.
We are born again to transfer our inheritance from Adam/Corruption to Jesus / Incorruption. This is not an immediate change to incorruption. The Bible says that God imputes righteousness unto us. Until which time that we can be brought into the fullness of His image. The Passover and Pentecostal ages having passed we are now moving into the Age of Tabernacles. This is where the patient creation who has been waiting in eager anticipation for the manifestation of the Sons/Daughters of God rejoices.
If you do not understand the concept of Ages, then you are sorely disadvantaged to understand God's will and His plan.
Dear Sons of Zadok, I fully agree with your first and last paragraphs. However the Bible never speaks of "Passover and Pentecostal ages" and knows of no "Age of Tabernacles." It does not have those concepts in the Scriptures. There may be a Pentecostal administration.
Eusebius,
The ages of Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles is patterned in the feasts of the Israelites in Exodus. These feasts also pattern stages of our Christian walk. Passover is justification. Pentecost is sanctification and Tabernacles is glorification. Spirit, Soul and Body. We are justified by faith in the blood of Jesus Christ as patterned by the lamb's blood on the doors. At Mt Sinai the law was given. The law reflects the character of God. This is where we suffer trials and tribulations and learn to hear the voice of our Father. In essence God would like to write his laws in our hearts ( as opposed to stone) whereby we inwardly learn the character of God and learn to walk in that character. Tabernacles is where they walked into the Promised Land.
The Promised Land being a metaphor for what today would be our manifested and immortal state. You must have a thorough understanding of the feast patterns. It is a key that unlocks much of the Bible.
The ages of Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles is patterned in the feasts of the Israelites in Exodus. These feasts also pattern stages of our Christian walk. Passover is justification. Pentecost is sanctification and Tabernacles is glorification. Spirit, Soul and Body. We are justified by faith in the blood of Jesus Christ as patterned by the lamb's blood on the doors. At Mt Sinai the law was given. The law reflects the character of God. This is where we suffer trials and tribulations and learn to hear the voice of our Father. In essence God would like to write his laws in our hearts ( as opposed to stone) whereby we inwardly learn the character of God and learn to walk in that character. Tabernacles is where they walked into the Promised Land.
The Promised Land being a metaphor for what today would be our manifested and immortal state. You must have a thorough understanding of the feast patterns. It is a key that unlocks much of the Bible.
Hi again S.o.Z.,
I understand wut yu are saying. It is just that the Bible nevur menshuns "age of Passover" or "age of Pentecost," or "age of Tabernacles."
Wut is interesting about Passover is that just the head of the house wood apply the blood and everywon in the family was saved. Fast fourward to the New Testament:
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Now Paul and Silus said "thy house shalt be saved." By this thay, beeng Jews, new that the man repreezentud the Jewish okupunts much like in Egypt during Passover.
I thought I would purposely mizpel wurds too make sum peepols skin krawl.
Hi again S.o.Z.,
I understand wut yu are saying. It is just that the Bible nevur menshuns "age of Passover" or "age of Pentecost," or "age of Tabernacles."
Wut is interesting about Passover is that just the head of the house wood apply the blood and everywon in the family was saved. Fast fourward to the New Testament:
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Now Paul and Silus said "thy house shalt be saved." By this thay, beeng Jews, new that the man repreezentud the Jewish okupunts much like in Egypt during Passover.
I thought I would purposely mizpel wurds too make sum peepols skin krawl.
yes I agree. I have been reading your posts. I do not have the gift to convey messages very well. so bear with me. If you are interested I will take it a little further:
these ages or stages if you will are also prophesied by the temple. the outer court, the inner court and the Holy of Holies. My initial reference to ages was specifically referring to the church ages. There was a Passover anointing church. A Pentecostal anointing church and now we are moving into a Tabernacles' anointing church. We are moving through the temple starting at the outer court moving into the Holy of Holies.
Pentecost was a partial anointing. Recall in Acts in the upper room the earnest of the spirit was given. This is an incomplete anointing. It won't be until the fullness of the Holy Spirit anointing is given that we can move into the full sonship of God. We are transitioning from Saul to David. From Levi to Melchizedek.
“Aionios describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Romans 16:25; 2 Tim 1:9; Titus 1:2; or undefined because endless, as in Rom 16:26, and the other 66 places in the NT. The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in 2 Cor 4:18, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit. ‘for a season,’ and in Philm 15, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e.g., of God, Rom 16:26.”
Now then, anyone can see the direct contradiction Vine incorporated into his understanding of aiwnios/eonian.
An adjective does not change its meaning when the noun it is modifying is different from another noun. Whether an adjective is modifying "God" or "life" "time," the adjectival meaning remains fixed.
He says it can mean "not endless" and it can mean "endless."
Vine meant that aiwnios is undefined duration.
Also, an important note: "temporary" is "seasons."
He says it must be endless because it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit. 'for a season,' in 2 Corinthians 4:18. But he, as well as many other so-called "scholars" have misunderstood this. Something need not be endless if it is contrasted with "seasons." Today we have the four seasons. So if I were to suffer for two seasons with the promise that I would have glory in the eon to come, would that eon to come have to be eternal since it is contrasted with "two seasons"? No.
2Co 4:18 at our not noting what is being observed, but what is not being observed, for what is being observed is temporary, yet what is not being observed is eonian."
(YLT) we not looking to the things seen, but to the things not seen; for the things seen are temporary, but the things not seen are age-during.
(GNT-V) μη σκοπουντων ημων τα βλεπομενα αλλα τα μη βλεπομενα
τα.. γαρ βλεπομενα..........βλεπομενα the for being-observed toward-seasons
τα.. δε μη βλεπομενα ....αιωνια
the yet no being-observed eonian
Since "eonian" is that which is pertaining to the eon(s), it cannot be eternal since the Bible says all the eons end.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
