Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The 'development' of Christianity between 100AD and 300AD is much less important than the establishment of Christianity between OAD and 100AD, which is the 'real truth' clearly documented in NT scripture. My challenge is for you to read and understand that, before getting overly focused on how early Christians (and those professing to follow Christ), responded.
God's truth in Christ has already prevailed in the true Church of Christ on earth - and "the gates of hell will never prevail against that." I've never found the NT 'so lacking' as to require my own alternative documents. (I will, however, more carefully examine this 'shocking' conspiracy article).
JG, that's what I am trying to point out to you. The earliest known "fragment" we have that is authenticated dates from late 2nd century. Whole copies don't emerge until the Codex Sinaiticus circa 5th century AD (say 450 AD)
We have absolutely NO authentic copies dating before that. And we have no contemporary secular historians saying ANYTHING about Jesus, or Paul, or the 12 Disciples. We have two vague references to "Christians" by Tacitus circa 110 AD"
"These Christians are stirring up trouble..." and
"The Chrestus..."
and nothing else.
Now I ask you as a reasonable, level-headed person: HOW, other than relying on faith, are we supposed to base our beliefs on such non-existent historical evidence??
I'm reasonable. I'm willing to believe ANYTHING about Jesus IF the historical evidence for him that dates from his time can be laid before me. That's all I ask for: secular contemporary writings from historians that speak about Jesus and his miraculous resurrection and ascension and Paul's journeys throughout the Mediterranean. But no one even mentions Paul. His epistles don't emerge until several centuries after his purported journeys. What is one supposed to base their faith on when Christianity doesn't become a real religion until Constantine makes it a political religion in 335 AD, 335 years after Jesus' birth?
And do you find resorting to mockery to be an effective tool for accomplishing such goals? At least we share one thing in common. My purpose here is to expose the lies and hypocrisy from atheists. When you start making ugly claims like that Bible which has changed my life and saved the lives of countless others is nothing more than a book of fairy tales then I can not remain silent.
But jeffbase, what if it could be proved with verifiable historical evidence that most, if not all of Genesis, was just fable and myth, like for example the Exodus. Here's what historians have to say about the Exodus:
Quote:
No archeological evidence has been found to support the Book of Exodus and most archaeologists have abandoned the investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit". Wikipedia
In other words, archeologists have not been able to find a shred of evidence that 4 million Israelites wandered around Sinai for 40 years. Now don't you think that 4 millions Jews living and wandering that small area would have left behind something that archeologists could later dig up? Nope. They find nothing that would indicate such. History tells us that Canaan was ruled by Egypt during the Mosaic period. Egyptians were all over Canaan protecting it. Why does this fact not get mentioned in Exodus?
Would you be willing to admit Genesis was myth then? You can still believe in God. Why not! Genesis being myth should not affect your faith in the 21st century.
.
Jesus Christ told his followers that most non-believers will treat them,
the same way they treated him.
And that it would get worse as time goes on.
Mt:10:14: And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words,
when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Lk:9:5: And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city,
shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.
My take on this is that the early church fathers knew that pagans would be challenging newly converted pagans with, "Why are you becoming Christian? Its just repackaged paganism" so they interpolated verses into the scriptures that could be used as a defense to these charges, "Look, we have Jesus' own words that people would mock us for believing in him", not knowing that there were no such words of Jesus recorded prior to 335 AD when Constantine convened Nicaea to bring an end to all the confusion among the plethora of religions plaguing the Roman empire.
This never was a Christian forum. It is the devils playground, the reason I along with others have moved on.
You know, Carolina, there is a forum where all they do is sit and talk about the rapture and how glorious it will be when all the true Christians are caught up to meet the Lord in the air and all the non-believers are left behind to endure the Tribulation. I'm probably not allowed to give it's name, but anyone who speaks the slightest word of doubt about the rapture in there is immediately banned. I should know. I got banned merely for asking if it was possible the rapture was not true. I think you would be very happy there.
The best threads are when someone sets a date and the date comes and goes without anything happening and all the members are scratching their heads and going, "Wha hoppon....?" But a week or so later there is a new date circulating and everybody gets primed and pumped for that date. Rinse/repeat.
Well, call me crazy, but I made a natural-enough assumption that anyone with the name, Hannibal Flavius could not possibly look like this:
(public domain--no copyright)
Now if you do we can talk all night.
I know right?
Dang the bad luck!
Well, thank God at least I wasn't born a woman.
Or was I?
Well, at least I became a man.
There is no more male and female because people are both male and female.
There is no slave or free man, because all are slaves, and all are free men.
There is no Jew or Gentile, all are gentile by flesh, and all have a hidden spirit of a Jew.
Now if I go out to speak to believers, what have I done but to lust after my own gender?
But if I go out to speak to a non believer, I am a man who goes out looking for a female.
Why would I go to believers like myself, it would make me just as if I were homosexual, but I don't do that, I go out looking for females {non Believers.}
What group of men will sit and talk amongst themselves, and when a whole room of females comes in, they tell the females to get lost?
I will follow the females.
One day all the willows came up to talk amongst themselves, and they said,'' Who is like the willow, we have been planted near the great river and none shall make us thirsty.''
But God was looking down on the willows and he caused the Earth to crack, and the Earth swallowed up the river and diverted it, the poor willows were crying so loudly when the drought came, and just before they died, they made a plea for a viper to go into the forest to speak with the cedars and the oaks saying,'' we don't know how to live without the river, please speak to the squirrels who find shelter in your shade, and who partake of your acorns.''
So the viper went out immediately and he spoke to the oaks saying,'' The river has been diverted from the willows, and I am come this very hour to bring word from the willows.''
The oak trees grimaced, and the king of the Oaks came forth but he was indifferent, they never liked the boastful willows in the first place.
The King of the oak trees said,'' Tell us viper, what say the willows?''
The viper spoke up in a loud voice saying,'' Live long O king of kings, King and Lord of all the trees of the forest, I am come to you this day because the willows are dying, and they send a plea that you would speak to the squirrels and have each of them bring an acorn so that Grand Oaks shall spring up where the willows have died.
The king of the Oaks thought this plan was just wonderful, so the King of the Oaks spoke with all the squirrels to gather the seeds of oaks to be planted over the dead willows.
The squirrels followed the viper right back to the dead river of the willows, and one by one the viper swallowed each squirrel as it came through an opening, and the viper became so big, and he said to himself,'' Not one time did I have to inject my spirit into a single squirrel, they walked right into my mouth.''
News got back to the king of the Oaks by one squirrel that had his body crushed and was dying, and just before the squirrel died he spoke to the great king of the oaks saying,'' The willows must have deceived you out of jealousy when the river failed, and now they have killed all the squirrels that spread your seed, behold, I am the last of squirrels.''
Just then, the viper came walking into the garden of oaks and swallowed up the last squirrel and went his way.
The King of the oak trees said,'' That damn viper.''
The viper turned around and said,'' viper.''
If I got you to read all this, just imagine what will happen when I inject my spirit.
The moral of this story is that you shouldn't engage a viper with the name,'' Hannibal.''
There is no more male and female because people are both male and female.
There is no slave or free man, because all are slaves, and all are free men.
There is no Jew or Gentile, all are gentile by flesh, and all have a hidden spirit of a Jew.
Now if I go out to speak to believers, what have I done but to lust after my own gender?
But if I go out to speak to a non believer, I am a man who goes out looking for a female.
Why would I go to believers like myself, it would make me just as if I were homosexual, but I don't do that, I go out looking for females {non Believers.}
What group of men will sit and talk amongst themselves, and when a whole room of females comes in, they tell the females to get lost?
I will follow the females.
One day all the willows came up to talk amongst themselves, and they said,'' Who is like the willow, we have been planted near the great river and none shall make us thirsty.''
But God was looking down on the willows and he caused the Earth to crack, and the Earth swallowed up the river and diverted it, the poor willows were crying so loudly when the drought came, and just before they died, they made a plea for a viper to go into the forest to speak with the cedars and the oaks saying,'' we don't know how to live without the river, please speak to the squirrels who find shelter in your shade, and who partake of your acorns.''
So the viper went out immediately and he spoke to the oaks saying,'' The river has been diverted from the willows, and I am come this very hour to bring word from the willows.''
The oak trees grimaced, and the king of the Oaks came forth but he was indifferent, they never liked the boastful willows in the first place.
The King of the oak trees said,'' Tell us viper, what say the willows?''
The viper spoke up in a loud voice saying,'' Live long O king of kings, King and Lord of all the trees of the forest, I am come to you this day because the willows are dying, and they send a plea that you would speak to the squirrels and have each of them bring an acorn so that Grand Oaks shall spring up where the willows have died.
The king of the Oaks thought this plan was just wonderful, so the King of the Oaks spoke with all the squirrels to gather the seeds of oaks to be planted over the dead willows.
The squirrels followed the viper right back to the dead river of the willows, and one by one the viper swallowed each squirrel as it came through an opening, and the viper became so big, and he said to himself,'' Not one time did I have to inject my spirit into a single squirrel, they walked right into my mouth.''
News got back to the king of the Oaks by one squirrel that had his body crushed and was dying, and just before the squirrel died he spoke to the great king of the oaks saying,'' The willows must have deceived you out of jealousy when the river failed, and now they have killed all the squirrels that spread your seed, behold, I am the last of squirrels.''
Just then, the viper came walking into the garden of oaks and swallowed up the last squirrel and went his way.
The King of the oak trees said,'' That damn viper.''
The viper turned around and said,'' viper.''
If I got you to read all this, just imagine what will happen when I inject my spirit.
The moral of this story is that you shouldn't engage a viper with the name,'' Hannibal.''
Who will ever shut me up?
I haven't even come to the dolphins yet.
I got the dolphins part. It's from Genesis.
Quote:
And God created great dolphins...
The rest of that.......zoom...went right over my head.
The rest of that.......zoom...went right over my head.
The outer layer of the Tent of Meeting was made out of Dolphin skin, it was a dolphin swimming in the sand.
Have you ever seen the valley of whales?
Sea Monster dolphins where you see the head of a dolphin on one side of the hill, and his tail sticking out the other side.
Dolphins swimming through sand, one would have to suspect that Moses saw this.
When one has stood before the throne of God where the alter of incense with a crown stands, he looks at the alter of incense and knows that it had been carried in there just as a dolphin would be carried with two polls and material.
The person looking at the alter of incense sees a dolphin standing on the water, the alter has it's own covering of dolphin skins, and the colors come from two seas, one would see a dolphin of water who has become a new creature of air.
But jeffbase, what if it could be proved with verifiable historical evidence that most, if not all of Genesis, was just fable and myth, like for example the Exodus. Here's what historians have to say about the Exodus:
Lack of evidence is not evidence or proof. In fact, your position is a logical fallacy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
In other words, archeologists have not been able to find a shred of evidence that 4 million Israelites wandered around Sinai for 40 years. Now don't you think that 4 millions Jews living and wandering that small area would have left behind something that archeologists could later dig up? Nope. They find nothing that would indicate such. History tells us that Canaan was ruled by Egypt during the Mosaic period. Egyptians were all over Canaan protecting it. Why does this fact not get mentioned in Exodus?
Would you be willing to admit Genesis was myth then? You can still believe in God. Why not! Genesis being myth should not affect your faith in the 21st century.
The problem with the Exodus is no one can agree which Egyptian dynasty was in rule during the events in the Bible. The Sinai dessert is 23,000 square miles. Am I to believe that we have excavated this entire area to come to your conclusions? Also, if the Israelities were nomadic, we wouldn't find cities and ruins buried in the desert. It would be small artifacts in a very large place.
And finally, you have no evidence that someone wrote the Bible as a piece of fiction.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
but I am always up for a discussion. What did you have in mind?
