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I am glad that Jesus often spoke in proverbs as well as parables(so that which is spirit and life did not get into the wrong hands), and it would not in the slightest hinder me seeking the Lord through the scriptures if it was proven what is recorded in them were not actually real events. In saying that, in my former days as a fundamentalist it would have shaken my faith to the core.
There are many who have turned atheist that were bible fundamentalists, you can dismiss that as being they were never of you or whatever other excuse you want for them walking away from bible fundamentalism, if you ask me it was faith in the wrong thing, we were deceived into believing that which proceeds from the mouth of God is the bible,a grave error in my opinion. Scripture is a sign post that when opened up to us reveals Christ and further more reveals that Christ is in us(Col 1:17).
Scripture makes more sense to me now having forsaken my fundamentalist beliefs then they ever have.
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You are conflating believing the Bible is the accurate recorded word of God, with Fundamentalism, which is a sub group.
No. Those are dogma and essential to the Catholic theological structure. The only parts of Genesis that are essential are that the one and only God created the world, details unspecified, and that there was a first man who committed some unknown sin that was passed on. All humans are descended from him. This is required to support the doctrine of Original Sin. The man's body might have been the product of evolution but his soul and that of his mate and all their descendants resulted from acts of special creation.
The Church does not require either allegorical or literal readings of any of Genesis as long as the above are satisfied.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galileo2
Isn't the existence of Moses essential to the teaching on the Transfiguration in the New Testament?
Moses is not in Genesis. He does not show up until Exodus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galileo2
And I think you will find the Adam's sin of which we are all somehow guilty resulted from Augustine's using an Old Latin mistranslation of Paul's Romans; the "in quo" blunder has since been removed.
Not quite. The idea of Adam’s Sin being visited on everyone is inherent in the entire passage from Paul. Romans 5:12 is the contentious verse, correctly translated below. The “in quo” was supposedly interpreted as “in whom” when a better interpretation is “because”. But the idea of condemnation of all, even those not guilty of personal sin, is still there in the following verses. So “in quo” really had nothing to do with it.
Quote:
Romans 5
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.
15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Paul wanted to make Jesus the un-doer of Adam’s ‘curse’ to have the crucifixion make sense. Augustine added in the concupiscence angle, having Adam’s sin transmitted by sex, which he considered inherently evil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galileo2
The Easter Church including the Roman Church's Eastern Catholic Rite reject this teaching on the heredity sin and consequently reject the Immaculate Conception dogma since Mary could not have been preserved from the "stain of original sin" if original sin doesn't exist.
The Eastern Churches do hold that humanity suffers the consequences of the sin of Adam, e.g., death, the need to labor etc., but not guilt for it. The sacrifice of Jesus was to end the dominance of death over anyone who followed his teachings. They would receive eternal life in paradise after the general resurrection. This is essentially a return to Eden before Adam’s sin. This is very similar to the Roman Catholic view except that original sin does not enter into the Eastern view.
Moses is not in Genesis. He does not show up until Exodus.
Not quite. The idea of Adam’s Sin being visited on everyone is inherent in the entire passage from Paul. Romans 5:12 is the contentious verse, correctly translated below. The “in quo” was supposedly interpreted as “in whom” when a better interpretation is “because”. But the idea of condemnation of all, even those not guilty of personal sin, is still there in the following verses. So “in quo” really had nothing to do with it.
Paul wanted to make Jesus the un-doer of Adam’s ‘curse’ to have the crucifixion make sense. Augustine added in the concupiscence angle, having Adam’s sin transmitted by sex, which he considered inherently evil.
The Eastern Churches do hold that humanity suffers the consequences of the sin of Adam, e.g., death, the need to labor etc., but not guilt for it. The sacrifice of Jesus was to end the dominance of death over anyone who followed his teachings. They would receive eternal life in paradise after the general resurrection. This is essentially a return to Eden before Adam’s sin. This is very similar to the Roman Catholic view except that original sin does not enter into the Eastern view.
There was no "in quo" in the correct Greek translation. Only in the mistranslated Old Latin version that Augustine used. From this Augustine developed his hereditary sin or “stain” theory of original sin. Since the Eastern Churches didn’t use Augustine as a source, but instead used a correct Greek translation without “in whom” they never held to the stain theory for everyone sharing in Adam's guilt for a sin they themselves hadn't committed.. Consequently, Mary could not have been preserved for a “stain” that no one had inherited. Hence, they don't believe in an Immaculate Conception either.
Romans 5: 12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned—(New Revised Standard Version)
Romans 5:12 [The Old Latin mistranslation that Augustine quoted] Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.
In short, Augustine taught that there was personal guilt which everyone had and needed to be baptized to avoid being sent to hell. Later on theologians sent the unbaptized infants to Limbo, but that theory is gone too.
Question: Does the Eastern Church teach that nothing died until Adam sinned? Unless one holds to only six days of creation, the earth must have been pretty crowded by the time that Adam sinned so death entered the world.
Last edited by Aristotle's Child; 12-02-2014 at 10:14 AM..
Isn't the existence of Moses essential to the teaching on the Transfiguration in the New Testament?
Yes
The transfiguration is a picture of the kingdom of heaven, '' YOU.''
A Prophet
A Priest
A King
Elijah is the least in the kingdom of heaven because he is just the first step.
The goal of a Christian is supposed to be that you were given a child from a husband you are only betrothed to. You become a virgin and you are raising a child as a virgin. If you raise a full grown man, then you will give birth on firstfruits as a virgin.
The concept of what Moses symbolizes is in Genesis.
The transfiguration is a picture of the kingdom of heaven, '' YOU.''
A Prophet
A Priest
A King
Elijah is the least in the kingdom of heaven because he is just the first step.
The goal of a Christian is supposed to be that you were given a child from a husband you are only betrothed to. You become a virgin and you are raising a child as a virgin. If you raise a full grown man, then you will give birth on firstfruits as a virgin.
The concept of what Moses symbolizes is in Genesis.
It has now been admitted by even Israeli archaeologists that the first seven books of the bible are folklore originally compiled about 800 B.c. There is absolutely no archaeological hints that Hebrews were ever in Egypt (for 400 years) or spent 40 years in the desert; not even one piece of broken pottery. The Egyptians maintained numerous records but there is nothing in their writings about Hebrews in Egypt The Moses legend develops with the retelling of the birth of Sargon II who (it is claimed) was placed in the river by his mother to save him.
If there was no Moses then the Transfiguration story, is just that, a story. Or we can say it was a "miracle" involving a fictitious character, maybe even a vision or hallucination. But it didn't really happen.
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But it didn't really happen.
