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So guarding our hearts is a waste of time, because we can never know whether we are resisting anything God is purposing. Kay sera sera whatever will be will be ?.
Sure we can know. Again that is the accountability part. Your not distinguishing between His responsibility and our accountability.
Sure we can know. Again that is the accountability part. Your not distinguishing between His responsibility and our accountability.
Tell me how we are accountable for what someone else (God) is responsible for?. I think it is you my friend not understanding that we cannot be held accountable for something that another was responsible for, more so when we have no knowledge of someone orchestrating it, that we could at least act towards it how we wish.
The only conclusion i can take from this is without knowing you are, you are saying we are God.
While man is responsible for his thoughts and actions, and is accountable to God, God is accountable only to Himself. He is the absolute sovereign of the Universe. He sovereignly decided to give man volition which is the ability to choose between available options. And God holds man responsible - accountable for his decisions.
Last edited by Michael Way; 12-04-2014 at 06:30 PM..
Many on this thread are committing the "fallacy of single cause".
God hardened pharoah's heart.
Pharoah hardened his own heart.
Therefore both God and pharoah caused his heart to be hardened. Therefore both were responsible. And God held pharoah accountable.
God was in a sense the ultimate responsible one, since God could have hardened or softened pharoah's heart no matter how obstinate pharoah was. And God could have done that without pharoah ever losing his ability to choose.
So mostly I agree with trettep except for assuming that since God was responsible then pharoah was not responsible.
Many on this thread are committing the "fallacy of single cause".
God hardened pharoah's heart.
Pharoah hardened his own heart.
Therefore both God and pharoah caused his heart to be hardened. Therefore both were responsible. And God held pharoah accountable.
God was in a sense the ultimate responsible one, since God could have hardened or softened pharoah's heart no matter how obstinate pharoah was. And God could have done that without pharoah ever losing his ability to choose.
So mostly I agree with trettep except for assuming that since God was responsible then pharoah was not responsible.
Concerning Romans 8, I posted previously here that the OP is misunderstanding
it's message. Just read the commentary in previous post after each verse. It is
about fallen creation.. those beings of creation without free will, both animous and still,
were impacted by the corruption of man and his punishment. They fall under our dominion.
Angels and Men have free will, so are not passive subjects. God is just and merciful but no
sin can stand before Him. No lawless iniquity can abide in His immediate presence. This is
why He sent Christ so that we have hope to be reconciled to Him in time, before the
Resoration of all to God. When evil will be destroyed and none allowed to persist anymore.
That time has not occurred yet up to this day. It will be the complete metamorphosis of
This Earth and Heaven as it is into New Heaven and New Earth. He doesn't want to do it
yet, likely out of mercy because He is patient. When no evil can be allowed to continue it's
going to wipe out a lot of us. So He keeps giving us chances until one day, He's done.
For now, He doesn't want to unconditionally show us in physical, sensory terms what our
outcomes are after we die. Perhaps that for to do so would shatter the intrinsic purpose
that He desires us to abide by, at this time.
Concerning Pharoah, his heart was already hard. see a brief explanation: Who hardened Pharaoh's heart?
What i am saying is the ONE who you say is in control, tells us to guard our hearts. Guard our hearts from what ?, that which we do not want issuing out of us.
The good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. Matt 12:35
But pcamps, God has given us His word to guard our hearts so that we will guard them by heeding what He wrote. How do we heed what He wrote? "God is working in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight."
But what makes the good man good? It is God. What makes the evil man evil? It is God.
Pro_16:4 Yahweh has made everything for its own pertinent end, Yea even the wicked for the day of evil."
The evil person did not get on the potters wheel and make him/herself evil.
Tell me how we are accountable for what someone else (God) is responsible for?. I think it is you my friend not understanding that we cannot be held accountable for something that another was responsible for, more so when we have no knowledge of someone orchestrating it, that we could at least act towards it how we wish.
The only conclusion i can take from this is without knowing you are, you are saying we are God.
pcamps, your arguing against the scriptures.
Rom 9:17 for the Writing saith to Pharaoh--`For this very thing I did raise thee up, that I might shew in thee My power, and that My name might be declared in all the land;'
Rom 9:18 so, then, to whom He willeth, He doth kindness, and to whom He willeth, He doth harden.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say, then, to me, `Why yet doth He find fault? for His counsel who hath resisted?'
Rom 9:20 nay, but, O man, who art thou that art answering again to God? shall the thing formed say to Him who did form it , Why me didst thou make thus?
So you see we are held accountable in ALL things. You need to study hard the verses above and so many more including the fact that God directs the steps of man:
Pro_16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps
But pcamps, God has given us His word to guard our hearts so that we will guard them by heeding what He wrote. How do we heed what He wrote? "God is working in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight."
But what makes the good man good? It is God. What makes the evil man evil? It is God.
Pro_16:4 Yahweh has made everything for its own pertinent end, Yea even the wicked for the day of evil."
The evil person did not get on the potters wheel and make him/herself evil.
While man is responsible for his thoughts and actions, and is accountable to God, God is accountable only to Himself. He is the absolute sovereign of the Universe. He sovereignly decided to give man volition which is the ability to choose between available options. And God holds man responsible - accountable for his decisions.
So you don't believe that God holds Himself responsible for man's actions?
Concerning Romans 8, I posted previously here that the OP is misunderstanding
it's message. Just read the commentary in previous post after each verse. It is
about fallen creation.. those beings of creation without free will, both animous and still,
were impacted by the corruption of man and his punishment. They fall under our dominion.
Angels and Men have free will, so are not passive subjects. God is just and merciful but no
sin can stand before Him. No lawless iniquity can abide in His immediate presence. This is
why He sent Christ so that we have hope to be reconciled to Him in time, before the
Resoration of all to God. When evil will be destroyed and none allowed to persist anymore.
That time has not occurred yet up to this day. It will be the complete metamorphosis of
This Earth and Heaven as it is into New Heaven and New Earth. He doesn't want to do it
yet, likely out of mercy because He is patient. When no evil can be allowed to continue it's
going to wipe out a lot of us. So He keeps giving us chances until one day, He's done.
For now, He doesn't want to unconditionally show us in physical, sensory terms what our
outcomes are after we die. Perhaps that for to do so would shatter the intrinsic purpose
that He desires us to abide by, at this time.
Concerning Pharoah, his heart was already hard. see a brief explanation: Who hardened Pharaoh's heart?
Dear Snowball7,
What you wrote about above does not align properly with Paul's thesis in Romans 8
Romans 8:19-22 For the premonition of the creation is awaiting the unveiling of the sons of God. (20)
For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in
expectation" (21) that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the
glorious freedom of the children of God." (22) For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning
and travailing together until now.
Could Adam have done otherwise than to eat the forbidden fruit? No. He was created soulish and fleshly. Adam and Eve were created so that :
they could not please God
were at enmity to God
were not subject to God's law laid down in the garden
Romans 8:6-8 For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace,
(7) because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able." (8) Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God.
1Co_2:14 Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined."
1Co_15:45 If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:the last Adam a vivifying Spirit."
1Co_15:46 But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual."
Adam was soulish, Christ was spiritual.
God planned it all out. He subjected mankind and the universe to vanity, not, according to your Catholic quote, to punish mankind for their sins but it is said in Romans 8 that it is so that they should all enter into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
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