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But that's just it. I don't believe we humans are responsible for the pottery being marred by us. Rather it is marred in the hands of the POTTER before we did anything good or bad.
Jeremiah 18:1-4 The word that has been unto Jeremiah from Yahweh, saying, (2) Rise, and you have
gone down [to] the potter's house, and there I cause you to hear My words;" (3) and I go down [to]
the potter's house, and lo, he is doing a work on the stones, (4) and marred is the vessel that he is
making, as clay in the hand of the potter, and he has turned and he makes it another vessel, as it was
right in the eyes of the potter to make."
Isaiah 61:1-3 The spirit of My Lord Yahweh is on Me, because Yahweh anoints Me to bear tidings to the
humble. He sends Me to bind up the broken hearted, to herald to captives, liberty, and, to the blind, the
unclosing of the eyes, and, to the bound, to take the jubilee, (2) to herald an acceptable year for
Yahweh, and a day of vengeance for our Elohim. To comfort all mourners, (3) to give rejoicing to the
mourners of Zion, to give to them beauty instead of ashes, the oil of elation instead of mourning, the
muffler of praise instead of dimness of spirit. And they are called arbiters of righteousness, the planting
of Yahweh, to beautify Himself."
If the spirit of His Lord was not upon Him nor anointed Him, He could not do what was prophesied for Him to do.
This is confirmed by this:
Heb 10:7 Then said I, "Lo! I am arriving-In the summary of the scroll it is written concerning Me-To do Thy will, O God."
If God did not will Him to do what He was to do, He could not have done it.
I asked you a question and you never answered it. I never asked you who is the potter and who is doing the marring.
This is the question i asked of you...........
This is for Eusebius, trettep and anyone else who agrees with their posts. Imagine that you have the ability of being able to take clay(someone else's marred life ) in your own hands and mold it and shape it into something far more wonderful , would you have to think twice about doing so ? Well if you being evil know how to do good, how much more your Father in heaven ?. Or would you still hold onto to the primitive view that you being responsible for it being marred, can destroy what you created, hold the marred accountable who you claim is dead in sin, unable to do anything of its own self to change the marred life marred by your hands ?. I know if you were Christ minded what your answer would be.
And his ways and thoughts are higher than ours is not an acceptable answer, ET'ers use that for an excuse for those they believe will burn in hell.
The question is just as relevent as trettep's one about the man jumping 20 ft
I asked you a question and you never answered it. I never asked you who is the potter and who is doing the marring.
This is the question i asked of you...........
This is for Eusebius, trettep and anyone else who agrees with their posts. Imagine that you have the ability of being able to take clay(someone else's marred life ) in your own hands and mold it and shape it into something far more wonderful , would you have to think twice about doing so ? Well if you being evil know how to do good, how much more your Father in heaven ?. Or would you still hold onto to the primitive view that you being responsible for it being marred, can destroy what you created, hold the marred accountable who you claim is dead in sin, unable to do anything of its own self to change the marred life marred by your hands ?. I know if you were Christ minded what your answer would be.
And his ways and thoughts are higher than ours is not an acceptable answer, ET'ers use that for an excuse for those they believe will burn in hell.
The question is just as relevent as trettep's one about the man jumping 20 ft
My short answer is, God is doing exactly that. God is creating something far more wonderful.
The something far more wonderful is the image of God which Christ showed us. Loving those who loved him? No, almost everyone does that. The image of God loves enemies, sinners who use you. Hence the need for sinners. Which is why God might be willing to create us flawed vessels.
Now then, why would God judge flawed vessels that did not choose to be flawed? Well, we do that: We hold two-year old kids accountable for being selfish or yelling and screaming when they don't get their way, even though they did not choose to be so. We do it for their benefit.
I asked you a question and you never answered it. I never asked you who is the potter and who is doing the marring.
This is the question i asked of you...........
This is for Eusebius, trettep and anyone else who agrees with their posts. Imagine that you have the ability of being able to take clay(someone else's marred life ) in your own hands and mold it and shape it into something far more wonderful , would you have to think twice about doing so ? Well if you being evil know how to do good, how much more your Father in heaven ?. Or would you still hold onto to the primitive view that you being responsible for it being marred, can destroy what you created, hold the marred accountable who you claim is dead in sin, unable to do anything of its own self to change the marred life marred by your hands ?. I know if you were Christ minded what your answer would be.
And his ways and thoughts are higher than ours is not an acceptable answer, ET'ers use that for an excuse for those they believe will burn in hell.
The question is just as relevent as trettep's one about the man jumping 20 ft
I bolded the above question.
Maybe you should have re-cast that question as: "Or would you still hold onto the primitive view that God is responsible for it being marred." You believe the person is responsible for it being marred, not me.
Of course I would not hold to the view that we are responsible for the vessel being marred, God is. Why would the clay be marred by our hands? You believe that, not me.
God is the Potter. He is the one Who makes out of the same kneading vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor. And it is He, not we, Who reshapes the vessels of dishonor into vessels of honor. The Christ minded person would believe this.
Paul does not tell us it is our business to re-mold brothers or sisters or our unbelieving friends. He said "Rom_14:4 Who are you who are judging Another's domestic? To his own Master he is standing or falling. Now he will be made to stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand." And Paul said that the good utensils should separate themselves from the bad:
2 Timothy 2:20-21 Now in a great house there are not only gold and silver utensils, but wooden and
earthenware also, and some indeed for honor, yet some for dishonor." (21) If, then, anyone should
ever be purging himself from these, he will be a utensil for honor, hallowed, and useful to the Owner,
made ready for every good act."
Notice Paul said we should purge ourselves from the dishonorable utensils, not try to remold them.
Heb 2:17 Whence He ought, in all things, to be made like the brethren, that He may be becoming a merciful and faithful Chief Priest in that which is toward God, to make a propitiatory shelter for the sins of the people."
"If the term "real" implies that He is exactly the same as other men, we deny it absolutely. His spirit came from God, and differed radically from others. That He was in all things like His brethren (Heb.2:17) has reference to His capacity for suffering and consequent sympathy for those in trial. Such expressions must be subject to their contexts and the facts. He is often called a "Man." It would be intolerable pedantry if the Scriptures always reiterated distinctions which have no bearing on the matter in hand. But when the actual subject of His relationship to the race is discussed—as in this passage—the language is most exact. Then we learn that He came to be in the likeness of humanity, and was found in fashion as a man (Phil.2:7)" (Concordant Commentary).
Well Knocks is not always correct E, and here is one such case. What he has done here is in effect taken away Jesus humanity. Jesus simply could not be tempted in all points as we are unless He was made exactly like us. Therefore could not be our high priest.
Quote:
No, I'm just believe the scriptures. I don't re-write them. God made Satan made David number Israel. Therefore God made David number Israel and Satan made David number Israel. Therefore God made David sin.
Well if you are not rewriting them E show everyone the scripture that says God made Satan to make David number Israel. Good luck.
Quote:
Gen_50:20 And you, you devised against me evil, yet the Elohim devises it for me for good, that it may work out as at this day, to preserve alive many people.
God made them sell Joseph to Egypt just as God made Judas sell Christ to the priests.
Your just adding your understanding to those scriptures E, nowhere does it say God made Joseph's brothers sell Joseph to Egypt or Judas sell Christ to the priests.
You asked for scriptures that show that God searches out mens hearts to now what is in them. I gave 6 scriptures that state as much and this...
Quote:
I believe it was Jesus who went to Sodom to see what was going on. Jesus said He doesn't know everything, only the Father does.
...Is all you can come up with. So why did Jesus have to go and see? Did He do this by His own volition? Did God send Him to see if what was heard was as God heard it? If not please explain how a God who is in total control of our every move did not send Jesus to see?
I may be totally wrong here, but I see it this way:
God knows all outcomes. He is all-powerful and in total control of all things. Despite our sinful flesh and tendency to avoid his will, God has a redundancy plan for any possible outcome we choose. If we choose to follow the Spirit, we are in accordance with God's will. If we choose to ignore the Spirit and sin, God accounts for that and his plan continues. I think if we were all on a pre-ordained path, our actions would be like that of an automaton programmed by God. None of our choices or actions would be real, just plotlines in a story composed by the creator. For us to truly love God as He desires, we'd have to have the capacity to do so freely of our own desire, not from His forced hand.
However, because God is all-powerful, he absolutely at any time can intervene and force his will, such as when he allowed Sarah to become pregnant. He can do anything! Contemplating the complexities of God's plan boggles my mind, he truly is an awesome God!
But that is the issue here arch, many of the poster here believe that those who sin are in Gods will. They will tell you that is not what they believe but one cannot have a preordained plan without that plan being according to their will.
Yes, yes , yes.
Correct, then our choice would not really be our choice.
You said "overcoming evil with good" so evil is then part of salvation to you.
Bob that does not answer my question to you, all you are doing is forcing the question back on me, so please explain how our or someones else sinning is a part of salvation.
Explain why any man had to sin in order for us to learn to forgive or overcome evil with good?
pneuma wrote:
Well Knocks is not always correct E, and here is one such case. What he has done here is in effect taken away Jesus humanity. Jesus simply could not be tempted in all points as we are unless He was made exactly like us. Therefore could not be our high priest.
It's Knoch, not Knock. And he was correct on this matter.
Knoch stated: "That He was in all things like His brethren (Heb.2:17) has reference to His capacity for
suffering and consequent sympathy for those in trial. Such expressions must be subject to their contexts
and the facts. He is often called a "Man."
Heb 4:15 For we have not a Chief Priest not able to sympathize with our infirmities, but One Who has been tried in all respects like us, apart from sin."
Well if you are not rewriting them E show everyone the scripture that says God made Satan to make David number Israel. Good luck.
If I have time. They are in the OT.
Your just adding your understanding to those scriptures E, nowhere does it say God made Joseph's brothers sell Joseph to Egypt or Judas sell Christ to the priests.
Of course it does.
You asked for scriptures that show that God searches out mens hearts to now what is in them. I gave 6 scriptures that state as much and this...
I don't recall asking for that information.
...Is all you can come up with. So why did Jesus have to go and see? Did He do this by His own volition? Did God send Him to see if what was heard was as God heard it? If not please explain how a God who is in total control of our every move did not send Jesus to see?
Why did Jesus have to go and see concerning Sodom? Because He didn't know all as His Father does. That's why He had to go and see. He does not even today have His own volition. He is not free from the Father's will. He always does the will of Him Who sent Him. You know that.
" And if the prophet is deceived and speaks a word, I, the LORD, have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel." -Ezekiel 14:9
Kind of seems unfair to the prophet, doesn't it?
Or do you think man created light and darkness, good and evil?:
Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things.
This verse doesn't say the wicked made themselves wicked for the day of evil:
" The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil." -Prov 16:4"
So who is responsible?
I don't know how many times I have to explain this, but here goes again.
Create is a word of division, thus Isa. 45:7 should read.
I creates light to cut down darkness; I make peace to cut down evil; I the Lord do all these things.
Just look at when create was first used and it should become plain. God created the heavens and the earth. In what manner did God doe this? VIA division.
David said create in me a clean heart.
This is in reference to circumcision, the cutting away of the foreskin.
God is said to create by His word.
God word is a double edged sword used for division.
But that's just it. I don't believe we humans are responsible for the pottery being marred by us. Rather it is marred in the hands of the POTTER before we did anything good or bad.
Jeremiah 18:1-4 The word that has been unto Jeremiah from Yahweh, saying, (2) Rise, and you have
gone down [to] the potter's house, and there I cause you to hear My words;" (3) and I go down [to]
the potter's house, and lo, he is doing a work on the stones, (4) and marred is the vessel that he is
making, as clay in the hand of the potter, and he has turned and he makes it another vessel, as it was
right in the eyes of the potter to make."
Isaiah 61:1-3 The spirit of My Lord Yahweh is on Me, because Yahweh anoints Me to bear tidings to the
humble. He sends Me to bind up the broken hearted, to herald to captives, liberty, and, to the blind, the
unclosing of the eyes, and, to the bound, to take the jubilee, (2) to herald an acceptable year for
Yahweh, and a day of vengeance for our Elohim. To comfort all mourners, (3) to give rejoicing to the
mourners of Zion, to give to them beauty instead of ashes, the oil of elation instead of mourning, the
muffler of praise instead of dimness of spirit. And they are called arbiters of righteousness, the planting
of Yahweh, to beautify Himself."
If the spirit of His Lord was not upon Him nor anointed Him, He could not do what was prophesied for Him to do.
This is confirmed by this:
Heb 10:7 Then said I, "Lo! I am arriving-In the summary of the scroll it is written concerning Me-To do Thy will, O God."
If God did not will Him to do what He was to do, He could not have done it.
The Septuagint says the vessel fell from the potters hand and was marred,
And your last sentence is incorrect, Jesus said He could have called 12 legion of angels and God would have sent them.
My short answer is, God is doing exactly that. God is creating something far more wonderful.
The something far more wonderful is the image of God which Christ showed us. Loving those who loved him? No, almost everyone does that. The image of God loves enemies, sinners who use you. Hence the need for sinners. Which is why God might be willing to create us flawed vessels.
Now then, why would God judge flawed vessels that did not choose to be flawed? Well, we do that: We hold two-year old kids accountable for being selfish or yelling and screaming when they don't get their way, even though they did not choose to be so. We do it for their benefit.
why did MAN have to sin for these things to take place?
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