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You obviously do not understand how salvation works then Eusebius, just ask yourself what is the opposite of neglecting salvation, then you discover how the believer saves himself........ of cause without faith in it it will do you no good. Salvation is worked out(from within) by faith in the God of salvation
But I do understand how a person is saved. Once one believes Christ died for their sins, they are SEALED with the holy spirit of promise. A believer cannot unseal himself for the day of deliverance no matter what they do or not do. It is a seal that cannot be broken. Doing good works or giving heed to the doctrine Paul brought does not more than seal a person.
Eph_1:13 In Whom you also - on hearing the word of truth, the evangel of your salvation - in Whom on believing also, you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise"
Eph_4:30 And do not be causing sorrow to the holy spirit of God by which you are sealed for the day of deliverance.
But I do understand how a person is saved. Once one believes Christ died for their sins, they are SEALED with the holy spirit of promise. A believer cannot unseal himself for the day of deliverance no matter what they do or not do. It is a seal that cannot be broken. Doing good works or giving heed to the doctrine Paul brought does not more than seal a person.
Eph_1:13 In Whom you also - on hearing the word of truth, the evangel of your salvation - in Whom on believing also, you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise"
Eph_4:30 And do not be causing sorrow to the holy spirit of God by which you are sealed for the day of deliverance.
OSAS ?. I never mentioned good works as a means of salvation. I am talking about neglecting the one salvation that needs to be worked. If the salvation of God is not being worked out no matter how much we jump up down and dance and sing about Jesus and say we are sealed, that one salvation is not being worked out and neither are we living in it.
Tit 1:16 They are avowing an acquaintance with God, yet by their acts are denying it, being abominable and stubborn, and disqualified for every good act."
It is one thing to live a life which shows people that one, by their acts, denies an acquaintance with God and quite another to take that and say one must do good acts to be saved.
Thanks for the post of titus1:16. But if our works do not back up our profession, there is some doubt as to our eternal salvation. Jesus says the members of his family are those Who hear the word of God and do it. Luke ch. 8.
There is such a misunderstanding on this subject! We all gather in this forum, talking about these things, and it is a micro-look into the whole of Christiandom.
If I may, I would like to interject a few items...
First of all, Jesus said something in John 6:29, "Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.†This is NOT the end of the matter, or the fact that you have reached some goal, but the beginning of a work of God in progress! Many times it is mentioned about reaching eternal life, but belief in Jesus is the start of reaching this point. Eternal life is not given until the finish. Whenever scripture mentions attaining eternal life, it is NOT a statement of condemnation to those that have strayed, but it is a statement giving the steps on the path to attaining it. God starts with a raw person...YOU...and He persuades you to a belief in Jesus. You don't think of God, (You are not the initiator, God is), He plants the thought for you to desire Him! But this is only the initiation step in producing a Son of God, one of God's children. It is the beginning of the work of God, and through the sacrifice of Jesus, God works out the salvation of the soul, (not the spirit), in us.
Christians many times refer to being "born again", and this comes from John 3. But we make a grave mistake when we fail to realize what this means. The translation of this into English is incorrect, in that it should read "Begotten from above". When a person comes to realize and believe in Jesus as the Son of God, the Holy Spirit plants a seed inside of them, much like a sperm mating with an egg. It is not a "birth", but it is a "conception". The birth comes later at resurrection. With this knowledge, the parable that Jesus gave about the sower in Luke 8 then takes on a new fuller meaning. The spirit and soul are closely related in a human, and, as Hebrews says, it is the Word of God that can divide soul and spirit. Jesus' sacrifice covers ALL sin. The whole human race has been justified by this sacrifice. The problem from our point of view, is that unbelievers don't realize this. And without this realization, the work of God cannot proceed in a person. Back to Luke 8, this parable is not about "getting saved", it is about what happens to a person's sanctification process. God, (the sower) plants the seed. The internal part of the seed cannot be destroyed. But in order for the seed to grow, (which is the process of the soul growing and maturing in God...i.e. sanctification), the shell (or soul) surrounding it has to break open and decay. (We have to give up our lives, as it says in Matt.16:24-27). Many times the shell doesn't die because it is influenced (taken away), by Satan. Sometimes it falls on rocky ground, (a hard heart), and the Spirit within the seed can't get rooted. Sometimes it finds itself choked out by the cares of this world, and can't come to maturity. Then again, sometimes it falls on good ground and it grows to maturity. This does not mean it is in the fullness type of maturity, it only means that the embryo that the Spirit has concieved has grown to full term pregnancy, and is ready to be birthed. The baby in the womb will not be birthed to THIS WORLD OF MORTALITY, it will only be birthed to resurrection. Only in a resurrected body can God have a real, complete child.
It is God's work to sow the seed, and it is His work to sanctify, (or grow the baby). We, on the other hand can only delay the process in 3 ways. We can follow evil, we can be stubborn and hard-hearted, or we can get into the things of the world to the point of distraction.
Christians often go around pointing their fingers and saying that others aren't going to make it because of 4 things. When they do this, they are judging others in a manner that is based on ignorance of the facts. These 4 things I will list, first with the ignorant thought of men, and then with God's thought.
1. They don't believe. 1a. Actually, God didn't sow them yet. Do we actually believe that God would NOT sow everyone at some point? If He IS the sower, (and it says HE is), then it is HIS responsibility to sow everyone! Do we actually believe that because some missionary didn't reach a group of people, that God can't take care of this humanly impossible situation and find another way to complete His will of completeing the act of Jesus' sacrifice for all people? If He can't or won't do this, He's not much of a God, now is He?
2. Satan took the seed of belief. 2a. Actually, the seed is still there, and the seed (or soul covering the Spirit), is overcome with the person's propensity for evil. Can this be remedied? Yes; just remove the evil which is the blind wrapping material that is holding the soul from being split apart to release the Spirit, This can be done by God!
3. A hard heart burned up the seed. 3a. Actually, the hard heart is the iron-like shell of the soul that has kept the seed from splitting open and putting down roots.
4. The seed has died because of love for the world. 4a. Actually, the things of the world have delayed the growth of the seed. Can God intervene when He sees fit and use the trouble of the world to cause a person to repent? Can He turn the things of the world into a stench like fertilizer, and use it to split the shell of the soul? Yes, He can, but only He knows the right timing.
So what happens to those that have been sown and they never develop the seed before they die?
First, they will find themselves at the Great Judgment. Jesus gave the answer to their predicament in Matthew 16:26, "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"
We have to remember, that we are made of body, soul, and spirit. God wants everyone to fully develop their souls, but the soul is the portion of our humanity that is influenced by evil, a hard heart, and by the world. We form our personalities with a mixture of what we have allowed into our souls, and if we come to the judgment with the things that cannot abide in God's presence, then those things will be burned away with the fire of God that can't be extinguished...also known as eternal fire. It is not a place of eternity, it is an eternal fire that proceeds from God. When you stand before our Holy God, only the Godly things of the soul will remain. The bad things will be burned away! Paul told us this in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15. The Sea of Glass is mingled with fire, and Christians expect to be dancing upon it! It is this that same eternal fire! The difference is that the evil is gone and only those things that can pass through the fire will remain. We will abide in the fire of God from then on! This fire is a part of God's cleansing character!
Eternal life can only be obtained if we follow the plan of God. We CANNOT do this on our own merit! We can only get out of God's way and let Him work. That involves repentance, loving others, and saying no to the things that He shows us. God is doing the work, not us. By doing works on our own, or by resisting God, we only delay the resurrection. In other words, by not allowing God to sanctify our souls, we will jeopardize our election to be considered worthy of the first resurrection, and we will be placed in the final resurrection and be taken before God at the Great White Throne.
For all these millennia, men have been playing a game of King on the Mountain, pointing their sharp fingers at others, and trying to figure out their placement in Heaven and the non attainability of others, when in reality, it is a matter of God's timing and His authority in choosing those that He has developed for His purposes. We are to humbly accept the work of God in our lives, and accept the fact that God is in control and is also in control of everything and everyone else, and we are to treat everyone else like we would like to be treated. The way many act is alot like a great artist belittling everyone else because they can't paint like he can. He never stops to realize that there are millions of other talents! SOOOoooo... maybe the next time his car breaks down, he should fix it himself.
Location: In Thy presence is fulness of joy... Psa 16:11
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Just as some people demand "if there is a God" then He should unfold all the secrets of the universe to them (lest they deny Him for lack of "proof"), so some people wish to argue superlapsarianism vs intralapsarianism, ordo soludos, and the place of God's choice vs your choice. The Bible says God predestinated His plan to adopt sons and daughters through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. While upon the earth, Jesus continually invited people: FOLLOW ME; COME UNTO ME, etc. God has a perfect plan to redeem people to Himself. He issues the invitation to come to Him! Further, He warns that those who will not come to Him face an eternity of agony, because they prefer to remain in their sins and reject His free grace. He also warns that if you say 'yes' to Him, your life must reveal that choice, or you are not truly one of His own. Confusing? Only if you choose theology over the plain written Scriptures.
Thanks for the post of titus1:16. But if our works do not back up our profession, there is some doubt as to our eternal salvation. Jesus says the members of his family are those Who hear the word of God and do it. Luke ch. 8.
Luk 8:21 Now He, answering, said to them, "My mother and My brethren are these who are hearing the word of God and doing it."
This is true as to the Circumcision believers. Jesus ministered and was sent but to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.
The churches set up by Paul among the nations, the uncircumcision churches were saved by grace and were chosen to be believing and upon believing were sealed with the holy spirit FOR the day of deliverance.
Reading Paul's epistles to these churches of the nations we see they had all sorts of problems both with the flesh and concerning spiritual matters. Yet Paul never told them you must not have been saved in the first place. He even calls the Galatians his children and he begot them through the word. Yet they were trying to mix the Circumcision stuff with the Uncircumcision stuff and Paul would not allow that. But they were still in Christ. Yes, those of the nations can make shipwreck as to the faith but they are still saved, still sealed.
So, as to the churches Paul ministered to; were they filled with believers who saved themselves of did God save them?
Luk 8:21 Now He, answering, said to them, "My mother and My brethren are these who are hearing the word of God and doing it."
This is true as to the Circumcision believers. Jesus ministered and was sent but to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.
The churches set up by Paul among the nations, the uncircumcision churches were saved by grace and were chosen to be believing and upon believing were sealed with the holy spirit FOR the day of deliverance.
Reading Paul's epistles to these churches of the nations we see they had all sorts of problems both with the flesh and concerning spiritual matters. Yet Paul never told them you must not have been saved in the first place. He even calls the Galatians his children and he begot them through the word. Yet they were trying to mix the Circumcision stuff with the Uncircumcision stuff and Paul would not allow that. But they were still in Christ. Yes, those of the nations can make shipwreck as to the faith but they are still saved, still sealed.
So, as to the churches Paul ministered to; were they filled with believers who saved themselves of did God save them?
Yet Paul told the Galatians in Gal. 5:[16] This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
[17] For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
[18] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
[19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
[20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
[21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
[24] And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
[25] If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Yet Paul told the Galatians in Gal. 5:[16] This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
[17] For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
[18] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
[19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
[20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
[21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
[24] And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
[25] If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
That's right, such ones will not inherit the kingdom of God. One must ask oneself, "What did Paul mean by not inheriting the kingdom of God?" It does not mean one will lose their salvation to eonian life which is life for the oncoming eons. It means one will not have a part in God's kingdom administration. There are only so many chiefs needed, the rest are Indians, so to speak.
One is saved by grace, not by works. Salvation is gratuitous in that it is unearned. If it is earned it is no longer grace. A believer who is truly saved is sealed by the holy spirit for the day of deliverance.
"Those in Christ Jesus crucify the flesh . . . ." The word "crucify" is aorist. Aorists often are an ongoing action.
Professor Robertson said of the aorist:
"The Greek aorist covers much more ground than the English past...The aorist in Greek is so rich in meaning that the English labors and groans to express it. As a matter of fact the Greek aorist is translatable into almost every English tense except the imperfect..." Again, "The aorist is, strictly speaking, timeless."
So, do you believe a person saves himself or do you believe God saves the person?
Yet Paul told the Galatians in Gal. 5:[16] This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
[17] For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
[18] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
[19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
[20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
[21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
[24] And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. [25] If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Bob,
I respect your attempt to clarify this issue, but I have to clarify a few things that are not so easy to clarify, so my attempt may be falling short.
Paul, John, Jesus, and all the other writers of the New Testament had to be in 'like' thought, or we will just come away confused. If some of their writing conflicts with other parts of their own, (or other's), writings, all Christians have a major problem.
For instance, take Galatians 5:21. Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.As we read this plainly, it looks as though if we commit any of these things, we place ourselves in jeopardy of not inheriting the Kingdom of God. But if this is true, then we are all in grave trouble, because we all commit some of these things at some time or another, right? And if I read 1 John , I become even more confused, because in 1 John 3:8, the first half says, "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning." I commit sins almost every day, so does that mean I am of the devil? And John also said in 1 John 1:10 "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." And in 1 John 3:6 it says: "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." So I ask, How does John put these together? First he says that if we commit sin we are of the devil. Then he says that if we abide in Him, we don't sin, but then he says that whoever sins has not seen Him or known Him! This is an absolutely incompatable comparison!
The problem is solved when we realize that John and Paul were dividing the flesh from the Spirit! The Spirit is given to us, and Paul says, as you wrote above in Gal. 5:17, "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." We are born from above upon conversion, and the Holy Spirit comes to us in measure. Then as we cooperate with the Spirit, our flesh is overcome, little by little. The problem I have with most preaching and teaching, is that, this fight that is continually occurring within us is rarely considered, and the preacher or teacher lends his weight to the message, and most of the time the person hearing comes away with the idea that he has to DO something, where actually, this is a work of the Holy Spirit within the life of a person, and we don't have to DO anything...we just need to cooperate with the Spirit. The Spirit will eventually change our hearts in different areas of our lives as we stay in God's Word, and oftentimes we won't even realize why we no longer desire these things of the flesh. But we, as Christians often look on people as having problems and hardly ever consider that the problems that others have is none of our business for the most part, unless we have been affected by them. We are to let God do His work. He's VERY capable of doing so. When we begin to try to help God, or think that we can change things on our own, what we are doing is trying to purify the flesh with our own flesh! We can neve succeed in this. The flesh profits nothing!
So, in the instance of Paul saying that these sinners will not inherit the Kingdom of God, he is actually saying that "as long as you continue in the flesh, you can't inherit the Kingdom". He never said that it was a final judgment. If that were the case, no one would ever inherit it! God is actually working to incorporate people into His righteous place as they become ready. We are the ones that set time limits, not Him.
The overall meaning of many scriptures is misconstrued in this manner, and one of the reasons is because we are zealous for the things of God, we want to do right, but alas, we don't realize that we are trying to accomplish these things through the flesh. This also often leads into a "rules and regulation", (or a faith based on works), type of belief. Many a pastor or teacher stands up during a service and gives an opportune message that convicts heavily. The problem comes when we decide that we are going to stop doing such and such, and help God rid ourselves of such a thing. We actually only need to come to God in prayer, repent, and ask Him to solve the problem. Then He is free to do the work without fleshly interference.
If we carry this reasoning that God can solve these problems, and it is US that are the problem, and we are often interfering with God's work, we have to realize that God would be working on everyone in the world, but is hindered by many things like the flesh, different beliefs, unbelief, different religions, and a miriad of other things including mental problems and influence of the powers of the air. If God is capable of solving these things without interference, then, if we were God, what would we do about it? The answer has to be to eliminate the interference! And how does God accomplish this! He does it slowly, and in a manner that apllies to each individual and will not fail. The failures that we see are fleshly failures. The sin that we see is of the flesh and lust. The worldly problems are of the world. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3 that every man's work will be made manifest by "the Day" (or the Judgment), and it will be revealed by fire. And it says that the wood, hay, and stubble will be burned up, but the gold, silver, and precious stones will go through the fire, and that person will be saved, "as if by fire". That's a picture of what will happen to a believer that doesn't finish the work that God has for him while mortal. It's the same fire that people think is the fire of Hell. It is for purification. When an unbeliever shows up at the White Throne, God looks to see if his name is written in the Book of Life. If not, he will be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is actually the Lake of Purification. Will that unbeliever still be an unbeliever when he sees God? No, that's impossible! He will be fully convinced that God is Who He said that He is, and He will see the Son standing there also. So will he be condemned forever because he doesn't believe? No! Impossible! The sentence has to fit the crime, and it is unbelief that would separate a believer from God...only until he believes! This is God's ultimate convincing tool. God has no desire to condemn and torture! That's not in His character. His character is to find a way. And He HAS found a way! I've asked many people to show me where in the word God has a want to torture, or a provision in His law that provides for eternal banishment under torture. I have received no replies. The old English translations apply in like manner to the things I wrote above. The eternal punishment is not a fire that lasts forever; it is the fact that God's righteousness will forever try to cleanse unrighteousness. This work is done by His fire, and it is the FIRE that never ends. Once the object of the fire is purified, it can then live in the fire. How many Christians realize that once they reach the presence of God, they will be in that very same purifying fire, (the Sea of Glass is mingled with His fire), yet it won't hurt them because they abide? Nahum says: "Who can stand before His indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of His anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him." The answer is, "The righteous will abide in His indignation and fire" We won't be placed away from it...we will "abide" in it.
Bob,
I respect your attempt to clarify this issue, but I have to clarify a few things that are not so easy to clarify, so my attempt may be falling short.
Paul, John, Jesus, and all the other writers of the New Testament had to be in 'like' thought, or we will just come away confused. If some of their writing conflicts with other parts of their own, (or other's), writings, all Christians have a major problem.
For instance, take Galatians 5:21. Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.As we read this plainly, it looks as though if we commit any of these things, we place ourselves in jeopardy of not inheriting the Kingdom of God. But if this is true, then we are all in grave trouble, because we all commit some of these things at some time or another, right? And if I read 1 John , I become even more confused, because in 1 John 3:8, the first half says, "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning." I commit sins almost every day, so does that mean I am of the devil? And John also said in 1 John 1:10 "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." And in 1 John 3:6 it says: "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." So I ask, How does John put these together? First he says that if we commit sin we are of the devil. Then he says that if we abide in Him, we don't sin, but then he says that whoever sins has not seen Him or known Him! This is an absolutely incompatable comparison!
The problem is solved when we realize that John and Paul were dividing the flesh from the Spirit! The Spirit is given to us, and Paul says, as you wrote above in Gal. 5:17, "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." We are born from above upon conversion, and the Holy Spirit comes to us in measure. Then as we cooperate with the Spirit, our flesh is overcome, little by little. The problem I have with most preaching and teaching, is that, this fight that is continually occurring within us is rarely considered, and the preacher or teacher lends his weight to the message, and most of the time the person hearing comes away with the idea that he has to DO something, where actually, this is a work of the Holy Spirit within the life of a person, and we don't have to DO anything...we just need to cooperate with the Spirit. The Spirit will eventually change our hearts in different areas of our lives as we stay in God's Word, and oftentimes we won't even realize why we no longer desire these things of the flesh. But we, as Christians often look on people as having problems and hardly ever consider that the problems that others have is none of our business for the most part, unless we have been affected by them. We are to let God do His work. He's VERY capable of doing so. When we begin to try to help God, or think that we can change things on our own, what we are doing is trying to purify the flesh with our own flesh! We can neve succeed in this. The flesh profits nothing!
So, in the instance of Paul saying that these sinners will not inherit the Kingdom of God, he is actually saying that "as long as you continue in the flesh, you can't inherit the Kingdom". He never said that it was a final judgment. If that were the case, no one would ever inherit it! God is actually working to incorporate people into His righteous place as they become ready. We are the ones that set time limits, not Him.
The overall meaning of many scriptures is misconstrued in this manner, and one of the reasons is because we are zealous for the things of God, we want to do right, but alas, we don't realize that we are trying to accomplish these things through the flesh. This also often leads into a "rules and regulation", (or a faith based on works), type of belief. Many a pastor or teacher stands up during a service and gives an opportune message that convicts heavily. The problem comes when we decide that we are going to stop doing such and such, and help God rid ourselves of such a thing. We actually only need to come to God in prayer, repent, and ask Him to solve the problem. Then He is free to do the work without fleshly interference.
If we carry this reasoning that God can solve these problems, and it is US that are the problem, and we are often interfering with God's work, we have to realize that God would be working on everyone in the world, but is hindered by many things like the flesh, different beliefs, unbelief, different religions, and a miriad of other things including mental problems and influence of the powers of the air. If God is capable of solving these things without interference, then, if we were God, what would we do about it? The answer has to be to eliminate the interference! And how does God accomplish this! He does it slowly, and in a manner that apllies to each individual and will not fail. The failures that we see are fleshly failures. The sin that we see is of the flesh and lust. The worldly problems are of the world. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3 that every man's work will be made manifest by "the Day" (or the Judgment), and it will be revealed by fire. And it says that the wood, hay, and stubble will be burned up, but the gold, silver, and precious stones will go through the fire, and that person will be saved, "as if by fire". That's a picture of what will happen to a believer that doesn't finish the work that God has for him while mortal. It's the same fire that people think is the fire of Hell. It is for purification. When an unbeliever shows up at the White Throne, God looks to see if his name is written in the Book of Life. If not, he will be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is actually the Lake of Purification. Will that unbeliever still be an unbeliever when he sees God? No, that's impossible! He will be fully convinced that God is Who He said that He is, and He will see the Son standing there also. So will he be condemned forever because he doesn't believe? No! Impossible! The sentence has to fit the crime, and it is unbelief that would separate a believer from God...only until he believes! This is God's ultimate convincing tool. God has no desire to condemn and torture! That's not in His character. His character is to find a way. And He HAS found a way! I've asked many people to show me where in the word God has a want to torture, or a provision in His law that provides for eternal banishment under torture. I have received no replies. The old English translations apply in like manner to the things I wrote above. The eternal punishment is not a fire that lasts forever; it is the fact that God's righteousness will forever try to cleanse unrighteousness. This work is done by His fire, and it is the FIRE that never ends. Once the object of the fire is purified, it can then live in the fire. How many Christians realize that once they reach the presence of God, they will be in that very same purifying fire, (the Sea of Glass is mingled with His fire), yet it won't hurt them because they abide? Nahum says: "Who can stand before His indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of His anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him." The answer is, "The righteous will abide in His indignation and fire" We won't be placed away from it...we will "abide" in it.
Don,
You have made some very profound statements, and your remarks about the 4 different grounds, shows that some of the seeds sown are immediately blown away by Satan, the ones on rocky ground do not receive enough water to put down roots, and the ones that are choked out never reach maturity. Only the ones sown on good ground mature and bring forth fruits.
I have some questions about your conclusion. According to Heb.9:[27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Jesus said in Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
This sounds like the apostates who commit willfull, premeditated sins AFTER they have received the gift of the Holy Spirit
And again He says in John 5:[29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
This sounds like after this life is over, we face the judgment. If that is true, I for one would not want to put off forsaking all other temporal desires to fully commit my life to my Lord and Savior to take a chance that I would come up at the judgment and be told "Depart from me; I never knew you.
Last edited by Robert M Prince; 01-21-2015 at 09:02 PM..
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