"Father God" compared to human dad (churches, believing, Christ)

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by sophion

A loving human dad communicates with his children.

God has spoken to us in His Word.

A loving human dad forgives his childrens' little mistakes even if they dont ask for his forgiveness.

God is currently not reckoning our offenses to us and entreats mankind to be at peace with Him (2 Cor.5:19,20).

A loving human dad corrects his children.

If God doesn't discipline us then we are all illegitimate children. But He does discipline us. Heb.12:8

A loving human dad would not condemn his children for their ignorant little mistakes.

God doesn't condemn us for our ignorant little mistakes. He condemned all mankind due to Adam's one act of defiance. But He uncondemns all mankind due to Christ's one right act.

A loving human dad raises his children to be successfully independent.

A loving God raises his children to be free and all creation will one day enter into the glorious freedom of the children of God (Rom.8:21)

Those are qualities not seen in the Father God of Christianity who behaves rather like a short tempered absentee father paying child support who doesnt want his kids to ever grow up.

You are incorrect.

[DRob4JC]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

You have elevated the "precepts and doctrines of men" into Holy Writ. Nowhere does Jesus tell us to treat the scriptures as inerrant or infallible . . . ONLY that they testify of Him to establish His bona fides and to provide instruction that is USEFUL (profitable). Nowhere does He say (or even hint) that everything written about Him AFTER the OT is inerrant or infallible . . . because it didn't even exist when He was with us in body. Now that He is with us in Spirit as the Comforter within our consciousness . . . we have no need for the words "written in ink" and stone under the Old Covenant. We have the truth God has "written in our hearts" in agape love under the New Covenant. Christ does not need to meet my standards. He set them pretty high Himself by His life, teachings and especially His death. He epitomizes agape love for us all . . . even His torturers and murderers. "No greater love . . ." If YOU cannot unambiguously use the Spirit of agape love to test the Spirit of anything . . . that is not my fault. It IS a completely unambiguous standard. It is definitely NOT just my personal opinion. It is absolute!

Originally Posted by DRob4JC

You do know that Jesus often quoted and referenced the material in the OT... ? Jesus knew all - yet He still quoted what was written from the OT.

Matthew 4:3-11
And the tempter came and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread." 4 But He answered and said, "It is written, `MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.' " 5 Then the devil took Him into the holy city and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for it is written, `HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU'; and `ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP, SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.' " 7 Jesus said to him, "On the other hand, it is written, `YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.' " 8 Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; 9 and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me." 10 Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, `YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.' " 11 Then the devil left Him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him.

Luke 4:17-21
And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written, 18 "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED, 19 TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD." 20 And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him.

---------------------------------------

You say we do not need the words in the OT... yet...

Romans 15:4 - For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

---------------------------------------

MysticPHD - Your problem is not with me. Your problem is you continually lift up what makes sense to you and reject what God supplied in the Scriptures. You choose to accept a fictional "Spirit of agape love" as your god and guide.

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

You refuse to actually listen to what I say and then lie about my views using what you think I said. I never said we do not need the OT. I have always said we need to reinterpret it using the "mind of Christ" and the Spirit of agape love because our ignorant ancient ancestors GOT IT WRONG about God. Jesus quoted the OT to ESTABLISH His bona fides. To prove WHO He was because they testify of Him. He wanted them to come to Him to know the Father . . . NOT the words "written in ink" and stone. ALL Christians are supposed to rely on Christ who abides with us as the Living Word of God. God has "written in our hearts" and we have the Comforter to lead us to the truth that is there. Having hope from the scriptures refers to the testimonies and validations of Christ that they contain . . . so we can have faith that what Jesus revealed about the TRUE NATURE of our Father is truth.The Spirit of agape love IS God . . . NOT a fiction. God IS Spirit and God IS agape love. Get a clue.

Mystic - Please understand... I read 95% of everything. I put in bold dark red what you and I said about not needing the OT. You may not have meant it... but you said it. AND you stated why it's not needed - because the letter is in our hearts. That's the position you continuously hold. Don't call me a liar... you need to know what you are posting. If you are saying it need to be reinterpreted, then you don't believe the events of the OT as real truth in its context. Sounds like you are trying to have it both ways. You are not bold enough to totally discredit the OT, but you obviously don't believe it as it is written.

Regarding the Spirit of agape love... that's not God. God is God. Now love is included in who He is - but that is not all He is. You like the love part of God - so that's what you focus on. You don't like the jealous part of God - so you discredit that. You don't like that God gets angry, and hates sin... but He does.

Part of following God is accepting Him as He is - not as you want Him to be. You can say whatever you want about Him... He will be who He is going to be.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

You refuse to actually listen to what I say and then lie about my views using what you think I said. I never said we do not need the OT. I have always said we need to reinterpret it using the "mind of Christ" and the Spirit of agape love because our ignorant ancient ancestors GOT IT WRONG about God. Jesus quoted the OT to ESTABLISH His bona fides. To prove WHO He was because they testify of Him. He wanted them to come to Him to know the Father . . . NOT the words "written in ink" and stone. ALL Christians are supposed to rely on Christ who abides with us as the Living Word of God. God has "written in our hearts" and we have the Comforter to lead us to the truth that is there. Having hope from the scriptures refers to the testimonies and validations of Christ that they contain . . . so we can have faith that what Jesus revealed about the TRUE NATURE of our Father is truth.The Spirit of agape love IS God . . . NOT a fiction. God IS Spirit and God IS agape love. Get a clue.

Originally Posted by DRob4JC

Mystic - Please understand... I read 95% of everything. I put in bold dark red what you and I said about not needing the OT. You may not have meant it... but you said it. AND you stated why it's not needed - because the letter is in our hearts. That's the position you continuously hold. Don't call me a liar... you need to know what you are posting. If you are saying it need to be reinterpreted, then you don't believe the events of the OT as real truth in its context. Sounds like you are trying to have it both ways. You are not bold enough to totally discredit the OT, but you obviously don't believe it as it is written.

Regarding the Spirit of agape love... that's not God. God is God. Now love is included in who He is - but that is not all He is. You like the love part of God - so that's what you focus on. You don't like the jealous part of God - so you discredit that. You don't like that God gets angry, and hates sin... but He does.

Part of following God is accepting Him as He is - not as you want Him to be. You can say whatever you want about Him... He will be who He is going to be.

I apologize for the misunderstanding. Clearly you did not intend to lie about my views. The amount of misunderstanding about my views suggests that it is my communication failures that are at fault. What you fail to credit is that I have personally encountered the unconditional love and acceptance that is the Spirit of agape love (God). I accept that no one else need believe it . . . but for me it is decisive. Everything else I have studied and learned over the decades about our reality and God confirms my experiences. There is ONE Spirit we are all to have and that is the Spirit of agape love. Everything else can vary . . . and does. I can never accept that anything of God could ever violate that Spirit . . . so that is my absolute standard. Yours is the Bible and the concept of inerrancy. I feel confident in my standard . . . NOT yours.

Ephesians 2:18
18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:4-7

4Now there are diversities of graces, but the same Spirit;
5And there are diversities of ministries, but the same Lord;
6And there are diversities of operations, but the same God, who worketh all in all.
7And the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man unto profit.

1 Corinthians 12:4-13King James Version (KJV)

4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

[DRob4JC]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

I apologize for the misunderstanding. Clearly you did not intend to lie about my views. The amount of misunderstanding about my views suggests that it is my communication failures that are at fault. What you fail to credit is that I have personally encountered the unconditional love and acceptance that is the Spirit of agape love (God). I accept that no one else need believe it . . . but for me it is decisive. Everything else I have studied and learned over the decades about our reality and God confirms my experiences. There is ONE Spirit we are all to have and that is the Spirit of agape love. Everything else can vary . . . and does. I can never accept that anything of God could ever violate that Spirit . . . so that is my absolute standard. Yours is the Bible and the concept of inerrancy. I feel confident in my standard . . . NOT yours.

Ephesians 2:18
18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:4-7

4Now there are diversities of graces, but the same Spirit;
5And there are diversities of ministries, but the same Lord;
6And there are diversities of operations, but the same God, who worketh all in all.
7And the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man unto profit.

1 Corinthians 12:4-13King James Version (KJV)

4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Regarding the blue... I know you have accepted something - I just don't know what or who it is.

Regarding the red... You say you have received the "Spirit of agape love" - I don't know who or what that is. It certainly is not biblical - but for you, that works because the Bible is not your standard. Your experiences and beliefs are your own standard. However, that allows you to shape God into whom you want Him to be.

I know of the Holy Spirit that is one with God the Father and Jesus Christ - who is not subject to what I believe He should be. So for me, I believe that God is the source for the content in the Bible, and that the Bible accurately displays who God is and what He has done, and what He will do.

For you, you believe God is a spirit I have never heard of. You don't believe in biblical inerrancy - yet you just referenced a few passages of the Bible the support what you want. You don't believe in the OT as it is presented. I wonder if you believe Jesus actually rose from the dead. It seems like you use some of the Bible to support what you want to believe.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

I apologize for the misunderstanding. Clearly you did not intend to lie about my views. The amount of misunderstanding about my views suggests that it is my communication failures that are at fault. What you fail to credit is that I have personally encountered the unconditional love and acceptance that is the Spirit of agape love (God). I accept that no one else need believe it . . . but for me it is decisive. Everything else I have studied and learned over the decades about our reality and God confirms my experiences. There is ONE Spirit we are all to have and that is the Spirit of agape love. Everything else can vary . . . and does. I can never accept that anything of God could ever violate that Spirit . . . so that is my absolute standard. Yours is the Bible and the concept of inerrancy. I feel confident in my standard . . . NOT yours.

Ephesians 2:18
18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:4-7

4Now there are diversities of graces, but the same Spirit;
5And there are diversities of ministries, but the same Lord;
6And there are diversities of operations, but the same God, who worketh all in all.
7And the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man unto profit.

1 Corinthians 12:4-13King James Version (KJV)

4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Originally Posted by DRob4JC

You say you have received the "Spirit of agape love" - I don't know who or what that is. It certainly is not biblical - but for you, that works because the Bible is not your standard. Your experiences and beliefs are your own standard. However, that allows you to shape God into whom you want Him to be.

You are wrong. It is Biblical . . . but that is not the standard . . . Agape Love is.


1 John 4 (King James Version)

1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and His love is perfected in us.
13Hereby know we that we dwell in Him, and He in us, because He hath given us of His Spirit.
14And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19We love him, because he first loved us.
20If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

2 Corinthians 3:14-17

But their minds were blinded (blind minds= ignorance): for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16Nevertheless when it(heart) shall turn to the Lord (Christ), the vail shall be taken away.
17Now the Lord (Christ) is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

I know of the Holy Spirit that is one with God the Father and Jesus Christ - who is not subject to what I believe He should be. So for me, I believe that God is the source for the content in the Bible, and that the Bible accurately displays who God is and what He has done, and what He will do.

You keep missing the point. It has nothing to do with what I believe He should be and everything to do with what Jesus REVEALED HIM TO BE. That is where you fail. Christ accurately displays who God is and what He would and would NOT do . . . even to save Himself from torture and murder. For all Christians . . . Christ accurately revealed who the Father IS . . . NOT the OT under the veil of ignorance (blind minds).

For you, you believe God is a spirit I have never heard of. You don't believe in biblical inerrancy - yet you just referenced a few passages of the Bible the support what you want. You don't believe in the OT as it is presented. I wonder if you believe Jesus actually rose from the dead. It seems like you use some of the Bible to support what you want to believe.

God IS Spirit. God IS agape love. How can you NOT have heard of the Spirit who IS agape love??? Of course
Jesus was "born again" as Spirit . . . or we would not have the Comforter within our consciousness to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts" in agape love under the New Covenant. The Bible CONTAINS inspirations from God . . . that is why I use it. However, not everything in it is God-inspired. It was compiled by fallible men with competing agendas and doctrines. That is WHY we are to test the Spirit of everything against the Spirit of agape love who IS God. I do not use what I want to believe . . . I use what Jesus revealed God IS . . . agape love.

[DRob4JC]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

Jesus was "born again" as Spirit . . . or we would not have the Comforter within our consciousness to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts" in agape love under the New Covenant. The Bible CONTAINS inspirations from God . . . that is why I use it. However, not everything in it is God-inspired. It was compiled by fallible men with competing agendas and doctrines. That is WHY we are to test the Spirit of everything against the Spirit of agape love who IS God. I do not use what I want to believe . . . I use what Jesus revealed God IS . . . agape love.

Regarding the red... He was born again in BODY. His Spirit never perished - so it could not have been "reborn". He was raised. He walked, talked, ate, and was touched by Thomas.

Regarding the blue... That is a direct contradiction of 2 Timothy 3:16-17. I honest do not understand how you can believe some parts of the Bible and directly reject others. Why do you believe any of the Bible? How do you determine what is true to you and what is not true? I guess that is the purple above.

You test everything according to some spirit that is inside of you - not knowing if that spirit is from God or not. That's one reason why the Bible (sourced from God and the Holy Spirit - 2 Pet. 1:21) is important because it gives you a reference with which to compare other theories that arise from people/other spirits.

You quoted 1 John 4 above. Look at the first three verses about testing the spirits.

Does this "spirit", in you, believe Jesus Christ has come in the flesh - via the virgin birth? If it doesn't - it is NOT of God.

Now you are going to think that 1 John 4 doesn't mention the virgin birth - but it has to include that aspect because that is the basis on which He could live a sinless life, die physically, and be physically resurrected.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

You are wrong. It is Biblical . . . but that is not the standard . . . Agape Love is.
1 John 4 (King James Version)

1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and His love is perfected in us.
13Hereby know we that we dwell in Him, and He in us, because He hath given us of His Spirit.
14And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19We love him, because he first loved us.
20If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

2 Corinthians 3:14-17

But their minds were blinded (blind minds= ignorance): for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16Nevertheless when it(heart) shall turn to the Lord (Christ), the vail shall be taken away.
17Now the Lord (Christ) is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.You keep missing the point. It has nothing to do with what I believe He should be and everything to do with what Jesus REVEALED HIM TO BE. That is where you fail. Christ accurately displays who God is and what He would and would NOT do . . . even to save Himself from torture and murder. For all Christians . . . Christ accurately revealed who the Father IS . . . NOT the OT under the veil of ignorance (blind minds).God IS Spirit. God IS agape love. How can you NOT have heard of the Spirit who IS agape love??? Of course
Jesus was "born again" as Spirit . . . or we would not have the Comforter within our consciousness to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts" in agape love under the New Covenant. The Bible CONTAINS inspirations from God . . . that is why I use it. However, not everything in it is God-inspired. It was compiled by fallible men with competing agendas and doctrines. That is WHY we are to test the Spirit of everything against the Spirit of agape love who IS God. I do not use what I want to believe . . . I use what Jesus revealed God IS . . . agape love.

Originally Posted by DRob4JC

Regarding the red... He was born again in BODY. His Spirit never perished - so it could not have been "reborn". He was raised. He walked, talked, ate, and was touched by Thomas.

Feel free to disregard what He said to Nicodemus because of your conditioning to our physical body. Our ancestors were terrified of Spirits so deception about our fate was necessary through illusion. Physical bodies do not pass through closed doors or walls. But our terrified ancestors needed the assurance of physicality because Spirits were just too terrifying.

Regarding the blue... That is a direct contradiction of 2 Timothy 3:16-17. I honest do not understand how you can believe some parts of the Bible and directly reject others. Why do you believe any of the Bible? How do you determine what is true to you and what is not true? I guess that is the purple above.
You test everything according to some spirit that is inside of you - not knowing if that spirit is from God or not.

Why do you insist on pretending that the Spirit of agape love is not fully described and clear in the Bible?? Do you read 1 Cor 13 or the Sermon on the Mount or Galatians 5???? There is nothing unclear about what is agape love and what is not. THAT is the Spirit I use to test . . . NOT "some spirit that is inside of me." You can not possibly be sincerely trying to understand me if you think that agape love is NOT an absolute and clear standard against which the Spirit of everything in the Bible can be tested.

That's one reason why the Bible (sourced from God and the Holy Spirit - 2 Pet. 1:21) is important because it gives you a reference with which to compare other theories that arise from people/other spirits.
You quoted 1 John 4 above. Look at the first three verses about testing the spirits.
Does this "spirit", in you, believe Jesus Christ has come in the flesh - via the virgin birth? If it doesn't - it is NOT of God.
Now you are going to think that 1 John 4 doesn't mention the virgin birth - but it has to include that aspect because that is the basis on which He could live a sinless life, die physically, and be physically resurrected.

You have provided the perfect example of the influence of dogma and the "precepts and doctrines of men." Believing Jesus came in the flesh is a non-issue . . . of course He did. But you would conflate it with the doctrine of virginity to satisfy human preferences and reasoning. It is completely irrelevant to Christ's divinity which comes from the Father . . . NOT Mary. It is the Father's Holy Spirit who guided and taught Him everything . . . NOT Mary. It is His permanent access to the Father's Holy Spirit that enabled Him to be who He was. After His death and rebirth as Spirit . . . we now have the same advantage of His Holy Spirit (Comforter) within our consciousness to guide us.

[ShanaBrown]

A loving human dad communicates with his children.

God communicates to us in many ways, some being through His word, and His Spirit dwelling in us. He may also communicate to us through those He places in our lives.

A loving human dad forgives his childrens' little mistakes even if they
dont ask for his forgiveness.

God also forgives us.

A loving human dad corrects his children.

God does also.

A loving human dad would not condemn his children for their ignorant
little mistakes.

God condemns to teach us and correct us, just like a human father might condemn the act of a disobedient child. That does not mean that God condemns anyone to an eternal hell.

A loving human dad raises his children to be successfully independent.

God is the sustainer of life and we are already dependent on Him by the fact that He is our Creator. We cannot live without Him. That is one way that God the Father/Creator is different from a human father.

In addition to being our Father, God is also our Creator, our Maker, our Owner, our King, our Lord, our Sustainer, our Savior, our Judge, our Deliverer, our Redeemer, our Hope, our Life, our Healer, our All in All. God bless.

[DRob4JC]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

Feel free to disregard what He said to Nicodemus because of your conditioning to our physical body. Our ancestors were terrified of Spirits so deception about our fate was necessary through illusion. Physical bodies do not pass through closed doors or walls. But our terrified ancestors needed the assurance of physicality because Spirits were just too terrifying.


Why do you insist on pretending that the Spirit of agape love is not fully described and clear in the Bible?? Do you read 1 Cor 13 or the Sermon on the Mount or Galatians 5???? There is nothing unclear about what is agape love and what is not. THAT is the Spirit I use to test . . . NOT "some spirit that is inside of me." You can not possibly be sincerely trying to understand me if you think that agape love is NOT an absolute and clear standard against which the Spirit of everything in the Bible can be tested.


You have provided the perfect example of the influence of dogma and the "precepts and doctrines of men." Believing Jesus came in the flesh is a non-issue . . . of course He did. But you would conflate it with the doctrine of virginity to satisfy human preferences and reasoning. It is completely irrelevant to Christ's divinity which comes from the Father . . . NOT Mary. It is the Father's Holy Spirit who guided and taught Him everything . . . NOT Mary. It is His permanent access to the Father's Holy Spirit that enabled Him to be who He was. After His death and rebirth as Spirit . . . we now have the same advantage of His Holy Spirit (Comforter) within our consciousness to guide us.

Regarding the physical body...

John 20:19-20 - So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, "Peace be with you." 20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord.

John 20:26-28 - After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you." 27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing." 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

There's no dogma here... just reading and believing what was written.

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Regarding human reasoning... Do you really believe it is human reasoning to believe in the virgin birth?... something that no one on earth at this moment has ever seen? Think about that. Do you believe it is human reasoning to believe in a bodily resurrection? In contrast - I have highlighted in red above true human reasoning.

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Regarding love... 1 Corinthians 13 describes love... not a spirit of agape love to which one listens. The Spirit that exists within believers is the Holy Spirit, who is received from God as a result of believing in the gospel of Christ (which includes believing in the bodily resurrection). There is no spirit of love that one must use to test doctrines. There is no spirit of love that one must use to test the Bible.

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You said that believing in Jesus coming in the flesh is a non-issue. You quoted the verse that makes it an issue.

1 John 4:1-3 - Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

And notice that we are to test spirits to see if they are from God - not to see if they line up with the spirit of agape love. You quoted the verse - can you at least specify the terms correctly?

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

Feel free to disregard what He said to Nicodemus because of your conditioning to our physical body. Our ancestors were terrified of Spirits so deception about our fate was necessary through illusion. Physical bodies do not pass through closed doors or walls. But our terrified ancestors needed the assurance of physicality because Spirits were just too terrifying. Why do you insist on pretending that the Spirit of agape love is not fully described and clear in the Bible?? Do you read 1 Cor 13 or the Sermon on the Mount or Galatians 5???? There is nothing unclear about what is agape love and what is not. THAT is the Spirit I use to test . . . NOT "some spirit that is inside of me." You can not possibly be sincerely trying to understand me if you think that agape love is NOT an absolute and clear standard against which the Spirit of everything in the Bible can be tested. You have provided the perfect example of the influence of dogma and the "precepts and doctrines of men." Believing Jesus came in the flesh is a non-issue . . . of course He did. But you would conflate it with the doctrine of virginity to satisfy human preferences and reasoning. It is completely irrelevant to Christ's divinity which comes from the Father . . . NOT Mary. It is the Father's Holy Spirit who guided and taught Him everything . . . NOT Mary. It is His permanent access to the Father's Holy Spirit that enabled Him to be who He was. After His death and rebirth as Spirit . . . we now have the same advantage of His Holy Spirit (Comforter) within our consciousness to guide us.

Originally Posted by DRob4JC

Regarding the physical body...
There's no dogma here... just reading and believing what was written.

Ignoring the doors being shut despite it specifically being mentioned is refusing to attend to the clues necessary to understand the need for parables or deception at that time. NO physical body can go through closed doors or walls. There are clues throughout the Gospels that are there to aid future audiences who do not need the parables or deceptions Jesus had to use back then. The clues lead us to reinterpret the truth using the guidance of the Spirit of agape love who IS God.

Regarding human reasoning... Do you really believe it is human reasoning to believe in the virgin birth?... something that no one on earth at this moment has ever seen? Think about that. Do you believe it is human reasoning to believe in a bodily resurrection? In contrast - I have highlighted in red above true human reasoning.

OF course it is human reasoning and preference for magical thinking about God. For fundamentalists . . . if it isn't magical it doesn't seem to qualify as something of God. This is true of so much of religious dogma. We know that there never has ever been anything in human hands that is inerrant or infallible. In fact, NOWHERE is inerrancy or infalliblity EVER claimed for ANYTHING . . . yet it is universally assumed for everything in the Bible. Magical thinking.

Regarding love... 1 Corinthians 13 describes love... not a spirit of agape love to which one listens. The Spirit that exists within believers is the Holy Spirit, who is received from God as a result of believing in the gospel of Christ (which includes believing in the bodily resurrection). There is no spirit of love that one must use to test doctrines. There is no spirit of love that one must use to test the Bible.

You can continue to ignore that God IS Spirit and that God IS agape love to deny that the ONLY Holy Spirit that exists is God's Holy Spirit of agape love . . . but that is simply close-minded reliance on dogma and the "precepts and doctrines of men." The whole three persons in one nonsense is the result of our ancestors' ignorance about consciousness as the seat of personhood. It is God's consciousness that is His Holy Spirit and His person. It is the consciousness of Jesus that is IDENTICAL to God's consciousness (Holy Spirit) that makes them the same.

You said that believing in Jesus coming in the flesh is a non-issue. You quoted the verse that makes it an issue.
And notice that we are to test spirits to see if they are from God - not to see if they line up with the spirit of agape love. You quoted the verse - can you at least specify the terms correctly?

Of course "Jesus coming in the flesh is a non-issue" because HE OBVIOUSLY was born in the flesh. That which is born of Flesh is Flesh. No issue at all. Testing the spirits to see if they are from God HAS to test against the Spirit of agape love because God IS the Spirit of agape love.Duh! God IS Spirit. God IS agape love. Get it yet?????