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I will come back to this, but Mr5150 brings to mind an interesting thing. I attended a church (late 70s to early 90s) that was a cross between Pentecostals and Baptists and at the time when I attended, they were just coming out of the age when women could not wear red, makeup, jewelry or wear dresses above their knees or blouses above their elbows. Members were also not allowed to visit amusement parks, etc. By the time people my age showed up, we began to push the limits and made some headway. Women would wear some blush and we could go to parks and were allowed to use drums in the services.
I do not go to that church anymore, of course (or ANY church) but 20 years later, women can wear pants, makeup and members can go to movies or carnivals. So, what was alleged biblical prohibitions 40 years ago, or just 20 years ago are no longer prohibited. Another reason, in my mind, that shows how HUMAN the whole evolution of religion is.
Last edited by InsaneInDaMembrane; 12-31-2014 at 05:58 AM..
I will come back to this, but Mr5150 brings to mind an interesting thing. I attended a church (late 70s to early 90s) that was a cross between Pentecostals and Baptists and at the time when I attended, they were just coming out of the age when women could not wear red, makeup, jewelry or wear dresses above their knees or blouses above their elbows. Members were also not allowed to visit amusement parks, etc. By the time people my age showed up, we began to push the limits and made some headway. Women would wear some blush and we could go to parks and were allowed to use drums in the services.
I do not go to that church anymore, of course (or ANY church) but 20 years later, women can wear pants, makeup and members can go to movies or carnivals. So, what was alleged biblical prohibitions 40 years ago, or just 20 years ago are no longer prohibited. Another reason, in my mind, to show how HUMAN the whole evolution of religion is.
A cross between the Baptists and the Pentecost!!! I can't even imagine how difficult that was!
I guess every generation pushes the boundaries. I was in church in the 1960s when they were still preaching hate and America was going to hell in a hand basket because... 1st it was Jews (40s and 50s)then Blacks (50s and 60s) then women (all through the 60s). They were hating on us because we wanted to use birth control and then they were hating on us because women wanted to go to college and have jobs. Most of the women weren't looking for careers. Most just wanted to put food on the table. The average man in our area made $400 a month and many families had 4 or 5 kids. The church remained staunch - until the dollars in the collection plate began to drop off. Women mostly handled the family money and they sat down on it. We all showed up in church every Sunday and listened to the preacher bash us for an hour and then we went home - with our dollars in our pockets. It wasn't long before they were singing a different tune. They weren't promoting birth control or going to college or working, but they did shut up about it.
I'm all to familiar with changing church attitudes. I think it is the hypocrisy that really irritated me. If its a sin, it really should be a sin forever. Not that any of that stuff was in the Bible to begin with. Forget the doctrine; the collection plate is the bottom line.
I've been glad to hear in this thread all the things the churches have come off of. A few more no-money protests and organized religion might be a better place.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
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Originally Posted by Ella Parr
Your church now sounds like a really good one. I think finding the right church is very important.
Your first church was like my first Baptist church. It was hell fire and brimstone all the way. God was standing behind every tree with a lightening bolt in each hand just waiting to strike you down. God was mean and vengeance-filled and He was out to get you. I'm glad I found a God of love and kindness.
The Catholic Church I was raised in taught us the Catholic Church was the ONLY church and even stepping foot in another would doom you to hell. They did a fine job of driving me away from organized religion.
The Catholic Church I was raised in taught us the Catholic Church was the ONLY church and even stepping foot in another would doom you to hell. They did a fine job of driving me away from organized religion.
Can I ever relate to that! I think every church I ever attended said the same thing. They managed to run me off, too.
I have a friend who is Methodist. Her brother married a Baptist and he attends the Baptist church. My friend all but disowned her brother because he goes to the Baptist church now. She is mad at her brother and absolutely hates his wife. My friend is convinced that her brother is doomed to hell. sheesh.
The church I attended (The Apostolic Faith Mission - Trinitarian), as I said, was a mix of Pentecostalism, Seventh Day Adventism and a bit of Jehovah's Witnessism along with a Baptist style. Since the church was founded in Portland, Oregon and the founder was influenced by the Asouza Street Revival of the late 1800s or early 1900s which was influenced by Charles Darby's Dispensationalist ideas, it is not surprising the church was somewhat of a hybrid of all the above because it came about during the era that all of those other organizations (minus the Baptists) came about.
As is natural, the church was influenced by the style and events of the time. During the World Wars, the world was, of course, in their minds, coming to an end. When the Jewish State was created, again, Jesus was coming back. By my time, it was during tensions with Russia and post 60s and all the changes. Jesus was STILL coming back.
Anyway, the church was VERY strict. By my time, however, we were edging things. The hilarious part was, in Portland where the headquarters was, they more accustomed to a more reserved style of service with orchestras and the likes. Meanwhile, 6,000 miles away in the Caribbean where my church was at, in a society full of black folks, descended from Africans, the services were lively and emotional, a natural reflection of the society at large. The large Pentecostal influence in the Caribbean at the time, had much to do with that.
They church was also very much against divorce and re-marriage IF divorced. That was a one way ticket to hell. Of course, they were against sex before marriage which drove many horny young people into early marriages they were not ready for and THEN with the prohibition against divorce, you had all kinds of dysfunction going on that was often suppressed and disguised.
Depending on which branch of the church you attended around the world, there were variances, but for the most part, women were targeted for most of the rules. They were not allowed to wear pants (even in frigid areas), had to wear stockings, were not allowed to wear jewelry, not even wedding rings (the Jamaican churches allowed women to wear wedding rings but NOT the men. Figure that one out). Women were not allowed to wear dresses or skirts above the knees or short sleeved blouses. We were not allowed to go to movies or attend our cultural carnivals because that is where sinners hung out and we were to "come out from among them." They had a hard time with the afro generation which I came in on the cusp of that. Men were just not allowed to wear long hair or braid their hair. At one point women were not allowed to wear red because it was the color of the harlot. We were not allowed to listen to ANY secular song no matter how harmless. We were NOT to "forsake the assembly of the saints" so it was expected that one had to attend EVERY single service on Sunday, Tuesday and Wednesday and Friday Youth service.
Women were not allowed to wear bikinis at the beach, but were allowed to wear oversized t-shirts or be dressed in a dress or skirt with t-shirt to the top. Needless to say, seeing women in wet t-shirts clinging to their bodies caused more arousal than bikinis, of course. At some churches, like the one in Brooklyn, as in Jewish temples and Muslim arenas, men and women sat on separate sides of the aisle.
The church believed in the second coming, the afterlife, the rapture, the 7-year Tribulation period, the Millennium and so on. They believed God's time clock was the Jews and affairs in Israel. They believed in the "baptism of the holy spirit," sanctification (a requirement BEFORE you received the holy spirit which was easily manipulated) and speaking in tongues as evidence you received said, holy spirit. By my time, that was not necessarily fashionable as it had become a subject of jokes to hear someone blabbing gibberish or doing cartwheels down the aisle.
There is more, but all in all, the whole church experience was a joke. Looking back, I have to really wonder what I was thinking and I am just glad I am sooooooooo distanced from that and ANYTHING remotely resembling a religious environment.
When I used to go as a kid on Canton, NC it was all fire & brimstone & I remember the preacher looking at us kids, pointing at us telling us that we were going to burn in the fires of hell. As a Pagan now I would have to say that it didn't take.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,329 posts, read 54,389,283 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ella Parr
Can I ever relate to that! I think every church I ever attended said the same thing. They managed to run me off, too.
I have a friend who is Methodist. Her brother married a Baptist and he attends the Baptist church. My friend all but disowned her brother because he goes to the Baptist church now. She is mad at her brother and absolutely hates his wife. My friend is convinced that her brother is doomed to hell. sheesh.
How very Christian of her, eh?
I doubt I'll ever stop being amazed by how un-Christ-like many dedicated church goers can be.
Oh, I forgot about the fire and brimstone and the pearly gates bit. Yeah, they taught that too.
Also, the church's standard view was that one could backslide and lose their salvation, but those who were influenced by their Baptist neighbors, co-workers or schoolmates, they often argued that once one was saved, they were ALWAYS saved.
I'm all to familiar with changing church attitudes. I think it is the hypocrisy that really irritated me. If its a sin, it really should be a sin forever. Not that any of that stuff was in the Bible to begin with.
I like to point out that if you hew to a view that there is a One True Dogma that is discoverable, that it is important to be right about it, this automatically otherizes everyone who disagrees with you as Wrong. Another important side effect of this is that you must claim that your dogma has a lineage back to Christ himself and is immutable and never changes.
As you point our, Ella, the fact is, churches must remain relevant just like any other thought-system, and therefore, dogma can and does change. It just changes after a discreet pause. You were responding to a post about prohibitions against pants and skirts shorter than knee-length. Before that, there was a prohibition against skirts shorter than ankle length, and before that, a prohibition against showing ankle (how erotic!!). In parts of the world today that still exists, witness the recent flap over Selena Gomez baring an ankle in an important mosque in Abu Dhabi.
The point is that the church is usually a generation or two behind societal evolution generally. This allows any particular generation to perceive themselves as holding out against moral relativism in the name of timeless and unchanging "traditional values". It preserves the illusion that church dogma is absolute and unchanging, for that generation. As that generation ages and yields to the next one, any quibbling about how the world is going to hell in a handbasket as they start to notice actual changes, can be dismissed by the young folks as the standard complaint of the aged.
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