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Oh, I agree the name came to mean one division of the Church, the Rome based one. It is not the name of the original church at all, nor all of it's branches.
Thus using the name has nothing to do with being the original or same church as established at Pentecost.
yes, there were many other factions, but the church that prevailed was the Catholic Church. And you are correct, the original Church was Jewish.
At Nicea it covered 300 churches that Bishops attended from. It did not cover the 1500 that did not attend. A minority vote and the Creed still needed work, so not led by God's spirit.
In fact the Bishop of Rome did not attend, thus at best it shows he is not needed to make decisions of such magnitude at all. Just another Bishop.
I agree, this was an ecumenical council. However, the last paragraph in 325 AD states:
But those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable'—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.
Clearly there is a Catholic and Apostolic Church well before the council.
Re: 'Clearly there is a Catholic and Apostolic Church well before the council'
Looks like Tertullian notes its 'catholicity' which occurred at an earlier time:
'We are but of yesterday and we have filled everything , cities, islands, camps, palace, forum- all you have left is temples'. He goes on to say Britain was conquered by Christ in areas that Rome didn't reach. And there was the social aspect where Christianity invited men, women, children , the needy, the oppressed and others from all social classes. (According to Celsus , who gives it a wry jab, it also brought in 'crooks' and 'simpletons'!).
Really it's almost as if in those very early years that tbe future of the 'Church' was ordained to be described as 'catholic'.
I agree, this was an ecumenical council. However, the last paragraph in 325 AD states:
But those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable'—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.
Clearly there is a Catholic and Apostolic Church well before the council.
the holy catholic and apostolic Church.
a Catholic and Apostolic Church
See the difference? This simply goes along with what has been said the early church had divisions and the Nicene creed did not represent all of them as the vast majority of Bishops did not attend, including the Bishop of Rome. The bishop of Rome, the head of the Catholic Church had nothing to say or do with it, thus NOT Catholic church related. He just said OK to the minority and the emperor.
Plus Christs church would never allow a polemical entity, like an emperor, to dictate ANYTHING to do with doctrine.
I agree, this was an ecumenical council. However, the last paragraph in 325 AD states:
But those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable'—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.
Clearly there is a Catholic and Apostolic Church well before the council.
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA
the holy catholic and apostolic Church.
a Catholic and Apostolic Church
See the difference? This simply goes along with what has been said the early church had divisions and the Nicene creed did not represent all of them as the vast majority of Bishops did not attend, including the Bishop of Rome. The bishop of Rome, the head of the Catholic Church had nothing to say or do with it, thus NOT Catholic church related. He just said OK to the minority and the emperor.
Plus Christs church would never allow a polemical entity, like an emperor, to dictate ANYTHING to do with doctrine.
You are missing the point. The language used at Nicaea clearly shows a sense of an already existing Catholic and Apostolic Church. What was decided at Nicaea or who attended is irrelevant. There were people who took the existence of such a entity as already established fact.
The question was when the word Catholic was first used to refer to an organized Church. This was it.
See the difference? This simply goes along with what has been said the early church had divisions and the Nicene creed did not represent all of them as the vast majority of Bishops did not attend, including the Bishop of Rome. The bishop of Rome, the head of the Catholic Church had nothing to say or do with it, thus NOT Catholic church related. He just said OK to the minority and the emperor.
Plus Christs church would never allow a polemical entity, like an emperor, to dictate ANYTHING to do with doctrine.
Oh please, capitalization was very rare in ancient writings and mostly used at the onset of a paragraph. It is really moot to discussed little c and capital C.
It is a moot point to discuss little c and capital C. I am reminded of the useless little stone and big stone debate regarding Matt 16: 18,.
What really matters is that the Church is apostolic. The Catholic aspect is just a name that means universal.
Oh please, capitalization was very rare in ancient writings and mostly used at the onset of a paragraph. It is really moot to discussed little c and capital C.
It is a moot point to discuss little c and capital C. I am reminded of the useless little stone and big stone debate regarding Matt 16: 18,.
What really matters is that the Church is apostolic. The Catholic aspect is just a name that means universal.
That group claimed to be Universal and Apostolic. History tells us otherwise. It was one of many.
You do know Apostles were not Bishops and vice verse?
That group claimed to be Universal and Apostolic. History tells us otherwise. It was one of many.
You do know Apostles were not Bishops and vice verse?
Sure, but the original Christian Church continues to be Catholic and Apostolic. And those other Churches that remain Catholic and Apostolic are OK too.
There were no Protestants in that era. Sola Scriptura did not exist either because the WORD FO GOD was spread Orally and by Tradition (checked with Apostolic Succession). The final canon of the NT was not formal yet in 325 AD.
You can go here to ask. Catholic Answers and to the forum section.
I never hear the priest call us Roman Catholic, all I hear is we are Catholic. In any survey or list of religions all I see is Catholic or Protestant listed, etc. I never see Roman Catholic as opposed to Catholic.
Dear Janelle,
I went to Catholic school in the early 50s. The church was referred to as the Holy Roman Catholic Church. And of course one of the teachings at the time was that all my Protestant friends were destined for hell. The same would go for me if I happened to go to their church or miss Easter service. Eating meat on Friday was a major sin. You seem to have missed the good times. Our teachers were nuns in black and white habits.
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