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I believe you should have used the word "wrote" rather than "write".
The scripture that Paul is referring to when he mentions what Timothy read in his childhood was the scripture they had at the time. This is not the issue.
When Paul says "ALL scripture is given......" he means "ALL", Not what we had 20 years ago or have now but "ALL Scripture". That sentence is not limited to any part of the scripture but includes all. That is the phrase and meaning we are discussing. If I say you should always ware clothes and some other time mention what you wore as a child, that does not limit my comment to mean you should only ware the clothes you wore as a child.
Your last paragraph is a weak strawman at best. You need to work on that.
No strawmen here. What Holy Scripture did Timothy read as a child? It was not any canonical NT scripture, which did not exist when Timothy was a child. Was it Jewish scripture? If so it puts a totally different spin on what Paul means. If it was some unknown non-canonical scripture, what might have been in it?
And do not forget that Paul calls the scripture that Timothy read as a child - NOT FUTURE SCRIPTURES but the scriptures that Timothy read as a child - "which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus". Either Jewish scripture is able to make one wise for salvation, a very odd thing for Paul to say in light of his other writings, esp. Romans. Or Paul referred to some unknown non-canonical scripture, containing who knows what, as able to make one wise for salvation.
If the author of 2 Timothy is referring to canonical NT scripture then the author was not Paul despite that explicit claim and it cannot be trusted as the Word of God.
Go find a dictionary and look up the word "all". Post it in a new thread and tomorrow when I have time I will try and help you with it.
The sentence being discussed is not affirming some books and letters as scripture. It is simply saying that "ALL Scripture is.............". Nothing more.
All post are moderated. Now does that mean all past post? All current post? only new post? It means "ALL". Now look the word up and have a good night.
Sure I get what you mean, but you are ignoring another word, "Scripture". When Paul was writing, the only scripture that existed was the Hebrew canon, what we call the Old Testament. So clearly all of the Old Testament is what he would be referring to. It is doubtful that it was written before even the gospels, so it cannot be referring to them. It is also quite possible that Paul didn't actually write it, as current scholarship points to 1 Timothy and Titus having a different author than 2 Timothy...
Just because the verse in question doesn't logically encompass things to be written and canonized decades and even centuries in the future doesn't mean that the Bible isn't inspired by God. It is, however, a disservice to the text to try to use this quote to prove it.
On the other hand, if you want to insist that "all" must mean all, regardless of who wrote it, who canonized it, and when, you should start adding some books to your Bible. The Gospel of Marcion, the Shepherd of Hermas, the Book of Baruch, the Letter of Jeremiah, 1st and 2nd Maccabees, and Tobit among others. These have all at one time or other been considered part of scripture by some portion of Christianity.
I believe interpretations are inspired as well. At one time the vast majority of Christians believed correctly that the Bible supported slavery. We do not believe that now--not because scripture changed, but because we did.
Likewise most of the strongest men in the Bible had many wives--and sometimes concubines--but Christians no longer believe that now--not because scripture changed, but because we did.
Many believed women should never be pastors--but a goodly number of Christians no longer see any moral impediment to that. Women are becoming more prominent in Christian pulpits.
The point is that morality grows or it dies. It in no way remains the same regardless of what the current generation concludes. A hundred years from now the negative view of homosexuality will be dead among existing Christians. Because our morality is evolving even as I write this.
God is a living entity. He reveals not only through the written word, but the spoken word, the inspirational song and music, the beauty of nature, the kindness of a stranger. Each one of these is equally inspired when it make men and women think more on the glory and majesty of God.
If this were not so, then for the first three hundred years after Christ no one could ever have become a Christian because precious few had any written gospels/letters and certainly no canonized scripture. But they kept alive the story of Jesus.
The ones who are in trouble are those who are unable to grow spiritually with God. And, unfortunately, the Bible now as then (the Pharisees) is often the problem.
I think you are on the right track with that post.
I would say that God is ultimately a social construct. God is only "real" because people think that God is real. God is a product of human culture, analogous to something like money. Money is "real" only because whole societies believe it is real. The same could be said for other social constructs like governments, nations, languages, games, the arts, etc.
If God is a product of human culture (as opposed to an objective scientific fact) then God will change as the culture changes. And the morality demanded by that God will also change over time (as Wardendresden indicated).
Unfortunately, when a God-believing culture dies, that culture's God dies with it. That's why nobody worships Ra (the Egyptian Sun God) anymore. If God is ultimately a human construct, he can't actually "save" anyone from death. Salvation from death and eternal life are the Ultimate Goals of fundamentalist Christianity. I have no idea if other types of Christianity share that view. I only know what I was taught to believe.
For me, a God that is nothing more than a human construct isn't worthy of worship. To me, that God is merely a tool to control the gullible with the fear of hell and the false hope of a "pie in the sky when you die." It's a Santa Claus story for gullible adults who WANT TO BELIEVE. And if this forum is any indication, there are plenty of those people around, even in an age where scientific knowledge is only a mouse click away.
I think you are on the right track with that post.
I would say that God is ultimately a social construct. God is only "real" because people think that God is real. God is a product of human culture, analogous to something like money. Money is "real" only because whole societies believe it is real. The same could be said for other social constructs like governments, nations, languages, games, the arts, etc.
If God is a product of human culture (as opposed to an objective scientific fact) then God will change as the culture changes. And the morality demanded by that God will also change over time (as Wardendresden indicated).
Unfortunately, when a God-believing culture dies, that culture's God dies with it. That's why nobody worships Ra (the Egyptian Sun God) anymore. If God is ultimately a human construct, he can't actually "save" anyone from death. Salvation from death and eternal life are the Ultimate Goals of fundamentalist Christianity. I have no idea if other types of Christianity share that view. I only know what I was taught to believe.
For me, a God that is nothing more than a human construct isn't worthy of worship. To me, that God is merely a tool to control the gullible with the fear of hell and the false hope of a "pie in the sky when you die." It's a Santa Claus story for gullible adults who WANT TO BELIEVE. And if this forum is any indication, there are plenty of those people around, even in an age where scientific knowledge is only a mouse click away.
Well, I really do have faith in God. And not because I might receive "pie in the sky by and by," but because of the forgiveness I have received from being a most unrighteous individual. And because I am a Jesus believer, I want to pattern my life to treat others the way Jesus treated the vast majority of people--with respect and kindness. The only ones Jesus was ever very harsh with were the most religious people of His day and age. They all figured they had the answers, just like many Christians do today--especially when they try to tell other people how they should live.
For me, if my faith is of any value, it will show in my day to day living, not my day to day talking. And because I've been a very sinful man, I will not take it upon myself to judge others--because if I did, then I could expect judgment in like fashion. We all stand on equally sinful ground. Unfortunately, the Christianity prevalent in America is prone to point at that group over there or this one over here.
I think a real Christian just looks up--like in a city at staring up at a skyscraper. Pretty soon others will look up too. Some may stop to enjoy the view, others may just move along. If I can get anyone to look up for a moment, then I guess I've done about all God wants me to do in terms of "witnessing." And if anyone falls down, whether they are looking up or not, my job is to help them get back on their feet---whether they want to look up or not.
Faith is not about what one will receive. It is about what one has received. And that makes all the difference.
Purgatory is NEVER discussed or mentioned in mass. Catholics don't spend a nanosecond on purgatory, but this has been the darling of anti-Catholicism for years.
Any priest will tell you that HELL is simply to live away from God. And there is no fire and brimstone in the church, no one talks about hell anymore.
The homily is about being a Christ follower, how to be a decent person. It is mostly a philosophy class.
As for non-traditional Catholic: I would pick not going to confession as number 1!
A true non-traditional Catholic only goes to mass of Christmas and Easter.
We hear about Purgatory at each Mass. The Apostles Creed---
The "He descended into hell" is purgatory. Jesus could not go to hell since He is sinless. I wish the Church would change that part to say purgatory and I am not sure why it hasn't been changed. Most know what it means though.
The Apostle's Creed
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.
Luther wanted to stop the corruption and the dominance of popes that were in it for the money and prestige. A way to handle the dominance of the Pope was to invoke Sola Scriptura. The purpose of the reformation was correct.
The Church needed reformation and Luther did all he could.
However, I don't think Luther wanted the non-denominational Sola Scriptura literalist fundamentalist American Churches of the South.
I don't know if Luther foresaw all the Protestant denominations we have today but once you change scripture and drop away from the one Church it's only typical many churches would spring up. One after another changing and changing things over and over.
I even heard of one church voting on Jesus being the Son of God. The majority voted no. The older members had to leave since it's isn't even a Christian church anymore.
Purgatory is NEVER discussed or mentioned in mass. Catholics don't spend a nanosecond on purgatory, but this has been the darling of anti-Catholicism for years.
Any priest will tell you that HELL is simply to live away from God. And there is no fire and brimstone in the church, no one talks about hell anymore.
The homily is about being a Christ follower, how to be a decent person. It is mostly a philosophy class.
As for non-traditional Catholic: I would pick not going to confession as number 1!
A true non-traditional Catholic only goes to mass of Christmas and Easter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by janelle144
We hear about Purgatory at each Mass. The Apostles Creed---
The "He descended into hell" is purgatory. Jesus could not go to hell since He is sinless. I wish the Church would change that part to say purgatory and I am not sure why it hasn't been changed. Most know what it means though.
The Apostle's Creed
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.
I am starting to wonder if someone who claims to be a "Catholic" really is.
We hear about Purgatory at each Mass. The Apostles Creed---
The "He descended into hell" is purgatory. Jesus could not go to hell since He is sinless. I wish the Church would change that part to say purgatory and I am not sure why it hasn't been changed. Most know what it means though.
That is incorrect.
There were a number of different Greek words and ideas that ended up being rendered as 'hell' in English. In Catholic theology, the gates of heaven were closed until the sacrifice of Christ opened them again. All the righteous people who died before then went to the Limbo of the Fathers, a sort of waiting room. Between his death and resurrection Christ went to this Limbo and allowed the residents to enter heaven. That is Catholic theology
The Limbo of the Fathers should not be confused with Purgatory. No suffering was involved. Neither should it be confused with the idea of the Limbo of the Infants, where unbaptized innocents are said to go. That Limbo is not doctrinal, just speculative.
I think you are on the right track with that post.
I would say that God is ultimately a social construct. God is only "real" because people think that God is real. God is a product of human culture, analogous to something like money. Money is "real" only because whole societies believe it is real. The same could be said for other social constructs like governments, nations, languages, games, the arts, etc.
If God is a product of human culture (as opposed to an objective scientific fact) then God will change as the culture changes. And the morality demanded by that God will also change over time (as Wardendresden indicated).
Unfortunately, when a God-believing culture dies, that culture's God dies with it. That's why nobody worships Ra (the Egyptian Sun God) anymore. If God is ultimately a human construct, he can't actually "save" anyone from death. Salvation from death and eternal life are the Ultimate Goals of fundamentalist Christianity. I have no idea if other types of Christianity share that view. I only know what I was taught to believe.
For me, a God that is nothing more than a human construct isn't worthy of worship. To me, that God is merely a tool to control the gullible with the fear of hell and the false hope of a "pie in the sky when you die." It's a Santa Claus story for gullible adults who WANT TO BELIEVE. And if this forum is any indication, there are plenty of those people around, even in an age where scientific knowledge is only a mouse click away.
I consider myself a Christian (raised Catholic) because I admire the teachings of Jesus. Whether Jesus was divine or not is a moot point for me. However I suspect Jesus was just a man.
I could care less about salvation (being saved from what) or eternal life (who wants to live for an eternity?).
I sus oect eternal life was a gimmick to attract converts. MAN is inherently selfish and in this instance eternal life sounds pretty good.
We hear about Purgatory at each Mass. The Apostles Creed---
The "He descended into hell" is purgatory. Jesus could not go to hell since He is sinless. I wish the Church would change that part to say purgatory and I am not sure why it hasn't been changed. Most know what it means though.
The Apostle's Creed
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.
Purgatory is NEVER discussed in the homily.
Well------------ there was only one exception last year during the ALL souls mass. The priest jokingly asked if anyone knew what purgatory was because he did not have a clue.
So after going to mass to this parish for more than 20 years they mentioned purgatory once in the homily and it was the subject of a joke during the homily.
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