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That debate has been raging within Christianity since its founding. Later, Augustine said faith, Pelagius said works. Then it really hit the fan when Luther and Calvin came along. And the debate rages to this day. It's not surprising that the debate can become so heated: what could be more important than avoiding eternal torture?
It seems every new generation has to deal with correctly cutting (rightly dividing) the scriptures.
You ask: "What is more important than avoiding eternal torture?" Knowing God doesn't eternally torture anyone.
An outstanding question! Wrong in one aspect; producing good works is not proof of saving faith, but evidence for it. If someone is not producing fruit or recognizes that the motivation is to earn salvation BY the work, it is time to check the commitment and the basis in love. How does one build that love? Good question. Empathy is the biggest part of that, and the old saw about walking a mile in their shoes may be the major element in that. Can we really visualize what it means to be in the position of the person needing some special consideration of love?
Proof and evidence mean the same thing for this discussion or any other for that matter.
In other words, you're saying: Christian, look at yourself! If you're producing good works, that means you're in the faith. If you're not, then you're not even saved. And to start producing good works at this point won't make a difference either, because it's not about works, it's about having a genuine turn around in your soul (which is what being saved from sin really means).
So what could you do at this point? When you realize that you're not producing good works? (in other words: don't have qualities of the Spirit listed in Galatians, maybe 5:22)? In other words, when you realize that you're not saved? You pray a repentance prayer again? And hope that this time "It takes" and you start producing the qualities of the Spirit?
If anyone knows, please comment.
I think that Paul said something like that. He said something like: if you are in Christ, then YOU ARE living by the Spirit. It's reality, not a question. If you're not living by the Spirit, then you're not saved.
1COR 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1COR 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1COR 11:29 For he that eateth and drinks unworthily, eats and drinks damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1COR 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
If one is living in willful sin then they should repent before they receive the Bread and the Wine. We do many things in ignorance but wilful sin is not tolerated by God and will receive heavy chastisement from God. Overcoming is a process of learning to wait on God in prayer [with understanding], supplication [praying in the Spirit/the Spirit praying for us], study and obediance to the things we already understand.The Mind of Christ does not come with study per say [though needed] but by contact with the Living Christ on a daily basis.
REV 3:12 "Him that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, which is New Jerusalem, which comes down out of Heaven from My God: and I will write upon him My new name."
That debate has been raging within Christianity since its founding. Later, Augustine said faith, Pelagius said works. Then it really hit the fan when Luther and Calvin came along. And the debate rages to this day. It's not surprising that the debate can become so heated: what could be more important than avoiding eternal torture?
James does not say that eternal salvation is by works. He is not even talking about eternal salvation. He is referring to the already eternally saved believer putting his faith to work in order to be saved from having a non-productive and useless (dead) spiritual life that has no spiritual dynamics. It is an entirely different issue than eternal life.
There you go. You build a doctrine by ignoring contradictory verses. That path won't lead to the true understanding. It will be one sided.
Eternal salvation by works is simply not taught in the Bible. If clear statements from Paul and from Jesus can't convince you then I don't know what will. See and read posts #5 and 8 carefully.
Last edited by Michael Way; 01-22-2015 at 03:29 PM..
That debate has been raging within Christianity since its founding. Later, Augustine said faith, Pelagius said works. Then it really hit the fan when Luther and Calvin came along. And the debate rages to this day. It's not surprising that the debate can become so heated: what could be more important than avoiding eternal torture?
The Catholic Church says salvation is from grace, but evangelicals claim Catholics do something else.
Eternal salvation by works is simply not taught in the Bible. If clear statements from Paul and from Jesus can't convince you then I don't know what will. See and read posts #5 and 8 carefully.
Quote:
I. JUSTIFICATION
1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:34
But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35
1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ's Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36
[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37
1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39
1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.
1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.
1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40
Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45
II. GRACE
1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46
1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.
1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47
1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48
Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49
2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.
2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50
Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51
2002 God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of "eternal life" respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:
If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed "very good" since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.52
2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.54
2004 Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:
Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.55
2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.
Doing works (or rather BEING GOOD, having qualities of Christ) is not going to save you. It merely shows that you are saved.
Because you see, just because someone prayed for salvation is doesn't mean that they got saved. Paul said in Romans 9 I think that it doesn't depend on man's desire, but on God's mercy. And Paul was saying that some did not get saved, and it was by God's will.
So the people debate this issue because no one knows if they are saved or not. Because how would you know if you are? You have to have evidence. What evidence? Qualities of Christ in you.
Paul said: if Christ lives in you, you DO live by the Spirit. And he said: if you don't live by the Spirit, don't assume that you are saved.
Paul said: examine yourself to see if you are in the faith.
Why do you need to examine if you are just saved by grace and you don't have to worry about being good? You have to examine to see if you exhibit EVIDENCE of SALVATION (which is works, aka: Qualities of Christ)
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