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Old 01-21-2015, 08:43 PM
 
Location: USA
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My thinking, from a Christian perspective. A more balanced perspective on saved by grace vs by works discussion.



Here is the gist of what Paul is saying. Paul said that because men sinned, they became subjects to death. Sin is causing men to die. So Jesus got rid of sin (by becoming a perfect sacrifice). And now, we have to live as though we are not sinful anymore. And if we live like we are not sinful, then there is no more death. In other words, if we can live without sin, then we automatically get resurrection from the dead.

But we are sinful, we canít be 100% perfect. So thatís when the ďgrace of GodĒ covers half of the way. This is why Jesus gave us a gift. A gift is something you canít pay back. This is about a balance. Some go to an extreme and think that you could earn your way to heaven by being good, and if you are not good enough, then you are screwed. And others believe that just because Jesus gave us a gift, now you can live any way you want and still make it to heaven.

But Paul is saying that this is like a matching program. If you do your part, God will go the rest of the way. If you donít do your part, God wonít contribute either. So itís a balance between being good and between Godís grace covering what you canít accomplish.

Read the Bible verses from this perspective and see if things donít start to make much more sense now. People have been arguing back and forth about salvation by grace vs by works. But Paul is saying that itís like if you pay 10, God will match you and contribute then and you end up paying 20. But if you pay zero, God will pay zero, and you get nothing.

And here is a list of verses which supports what I just said (and there are many more in the Bible).

Romans 5:12 sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus
Romans 6:21,22 Those things (sinful behavior) result in death! But now that you have been set free from sinÖthe result is eternal life.
Romans 5:21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 8:2 through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. (and what is the law of sin and death? You sin, you die.)

John 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. ( Free from what? From sin.)

Romans 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin Ö.the result is eternal life.

1Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. (Destroyed on the cross)

Romans 6:4-8 Therefore we are buried with himÖour old man is crucified with himÖFor he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him.


Romans 6:7 because anyone who has died (to old sinful nature) has been freed from sin.


Romans 6:10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; Rom 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in his death,

Galatians 5:24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires


Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

James 2:26 faith without deeds is dead (even demons believe and tremble).

Mathew 3:8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. (to prove that you live by the Spirit)


Romans 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe

2Corinthians 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them.

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

1John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Romans 8:9 You are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithóand this not from yourselves, it is the gift of Godó

1John 3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.


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Old 01-21-2015, 09:26 PM
Status: "Spiffy." (set 4 days ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
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I don't care what Paul did, or didn't say.

We will be judged on our deeds*.

Bet your life on it.


*Or lack of same - depending on the situation.

Last edited by TroutDude; 01-21-2015 at 09:31 PM.. Reason: To add the *
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Old 01-21-2015, 11:35 PM
 
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The son of man says;

Not everyone who cries to me Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven but only those who do the will of my heavenly Father.

By your words you'll be justified or by your words you'll be condemned.

Let your light shine before men so they will see your good works and glorify your heavenly Father.

My Father is glorified in your bearing much fruit and becoming my disciple.

I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing.
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Old 01-22-2015, 01:19 AM
 
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We are saved by BOTH. Jesus redeemed us by His death and resurrection but we must do our part, live a good life. All of us must work out our own salvation. One can't just be baptized and than live an evil life than expect to enter heaven. No sin is allowed in heaven anyway.
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Old 01-22-2015, 06:02 AM
 
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What did Paul say? And what did Paul mean? He meant exactly what he said. We are saved by grace through faith and NOT by works lest any man should boast, and that if it is by grace then it is not by works, otherwise it is not grace. Grace and works are antithetical. They are opposites. God saves you. You cannot save yourself. You cannot contribute to your salvation from the penalty of Sin by any meritorious works that you do. It is not a half and half proposition. It is not by grace and works, it is by grace alone through faith in Christ Jesus. If works enter into the picture then it is not by grace. Read the following verses and try to objectively understand what Paul is saying.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
How can this not be clear to anyone? Salvation is a free gift which is received by grace through faith alone in Christ alone. Jesus' redemptive work on the cross paid in full the penalty for our sins. God requires that we recognize our inability to save ourselves by anything that we do, that we cannot contribute to our deliverance from the penalty of sin which is spiritual death which itself is separation from God, and that is only by what Christ has done for us that eternal salvation is possible. Therefore the only way to receive the gift of eternal life is by trusting in Christ and His finished work on the cross on our behalf. There is no merit in the faith. The merit is in the object of faith which is Jesus Christ.

Our best works of righteousness simply cannot measure up to God's perfect standard. In fact, if you die without having received Christ as Savior, then at the great white throne judgment after the Millennium, you will appear before Christ and He will bring out the book of life in which your name is not written, and the books of works in which all your deeds, including your most righteous deeds are recorded, and He will take note of them all and point out that they are not sufficient to save you. They are in fact the basis for your condemnation. Because you did not trust in Christ with the result that His perfect righteousness was not credited to you, you therefore by default are depending on your own righteous deeds to save you but which God cannot and will not accept (Rev. 20:11-15).

The reason anyone is judged at the great white throne judgment which is not the same judgment as the judgment seat of Christ mentioned in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 and 2 Cor. 5:10 which is for believers only, is because they died without believing on Christ.

Now what about the works of the believer in Jesus Christ. At any point in the believer's life after he has been eternally saved, he is either in fellowship or in a state of carnality. When the believer sins he is carnal and remains that way until he simply names or acknowledges to God the sin or sins he committed as per 1 John 1:9.

Any works that he does while in a state of carnality are 'wood, hay, and straw' which will be burned up at the judgment seat of Christ. On the other hand, any works which the believer does while in fellowship are works of 'gold, silver, and precious stones' which will be rewarded. If the believer has no works which are rewardable and are instead burned up, he himself is saved.
1 Cor. 3:12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13] each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14] If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

While works have a legitimate place in the believers life, they simply have nothing at all to do with your eternal salvation from the penalty of sin. Works done in the filling of the Spirit when the believer is in fellowship should be a result of having been saved by grace through faith alone in Christ alone, but those works do not in any way contribute to your eternal salvation. And there is no excuse for not understanding what the Scriptures say about this.


As far as 'working out your salvation';
Phil. 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
Working out your salvation refers not to your eternal salvation from the penalty of sin, but to the believer's salvation or deliverance from the power of sin in his life as an eternally saved believer. It has to do with the process of spiritual growth to maturity. It has to do with the process of experiential sanctification.

We are eternally saved from the penalty of sin by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.

The believer is saved from the power of sin in his life by means of spiritual growth.

The believer is saved from the presence of sin when he departs this life and goes to be with the Lord.

Last edited by Mike555; 01-22-2015 at 06:24 AM..
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Old 01-22-2015, 06:50 AM
 
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What Saint Paul said about salvation is not as important as what Jesus said about salvation. And Jesus states faith and works, not faith alone.
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Old 01-22-2015, 07:39 AM
 
Location: Whereever we have our RV parked
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You who are trusting in your works, are going down the wrong path.
Gal 2:15 “We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’
Gal 2:16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

Gal 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

Gal 3:6 Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness

Gal 3:11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”

Ro 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
Ro 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.


Ro 3:21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
Ro 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, Ro 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Ro 3:24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Ro 3:27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. Ro 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Good works and following the law are expected by God obviously. We are supposed to put evil and hatred and immorality out of our lives. But this is to show our love for God and people. But in no way do they save us. They are the fruit of faith, but not the reason for our salvation. Otherwise, we are putting our good works on equal status with the blood of Christ shed on the cross and his death. What blasphemy!!!
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Old 01-22-2015, 07:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
What Saint Paul said about salvation is not as important as what Jesus said about salvation. And Jesus states faith and works, not faith alone.
No He didn't. John records in John 6:27-29 that when Jesus was talking to a crowd of unbelieving Jews who thought they could work for their salvation, Jesus corrected them and informed them that eternal life was through faith in Him. Not by works.
John 6:27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal." 28] Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (erga;Plural) of God?" 29] Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work (ergon; Singular) of God, that you believe on Him whom He has sent."
Jesus was speaking to the crowd in terms they would understand. They thought that there were works that they could do in order to be saved. So Jesus spoke of not working for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life. When the crowd asked Him what those works were by which they could have eternal life Jesus told them that there was only one thing, which He called a work that they could do, and that was to believe on Him. Believe on Him in contrast to works. Believing on Christ is non meritorious. You can take no credit for simply trusting in Christ for salvation.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary on John 6:28-29 puts it like this.
6:28. The people recognized that Jesus was saying God had a requirement for them. They would do God's requirement if He would inform them what it was. They believed that they could please God and thus obtain eternal life by doing good works (cf. Rom. 10:24).

6:29. Jesus' response to their question was a flat contradiction of their thinking. They could not please God by doing good works. There is only one work of God, that is, one thing God requires. They need to put their trust in the One the Father has sent. Because of their sin people cannot please God by doing good works for salvation (Eph. 2:8-9; Titus 3:5). God demands that people recognize their inability to save themselves and receive His gift (Rom. 6:23). [The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, p. 295]

Paul did not contradict Jesus. Paul was appointed by Jesus to take the gospel to the Gentiles. And he fulfilled his mission. Both Jesus and Paul stated that eternal salvation is by faith in Him (in Christ Jesus).

You may say, but what about when the rich young ruler in Luke 18:18-22 asked Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life and Jesus told him to follow the commandments and to sell everything he had and give it to the poor. But Jesus' point was that if you were to inherit eternal life by keeping the Law, you had to keep the Law perfectly which is impossible for anyone to do. Only Jesus Himself was able to perfectly keep the Law. As it says in James 2:10;
James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
And we all stumble. As Paul stated in Gal. 2:16;
Gal. 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Isaiah stated in Isaiah 64:6 that all of our righteousnesses, our very best righteousnesses are like filthy gaments. They are simply not acceptable to God.
Isaiah 64:6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Jesus did not teach eternal salvation by works, or by faith plus works, but rather that eternal life was through faith in Him alone.
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Old 01-22-2015, 08:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

Jesus did not teach eternal salvation by works, or by faith plus works, but rather that eternal life was through faith in Him alone.
Don't think so:

Quote:
Matthew 24:13 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.
Quote:
Matthew 25:31-46 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty.
32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.
34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:
36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me.

37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee?
39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee?
40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink.
43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me.
44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee?
45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
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Old 01-22-2015, 08:54 AM
 
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To a true believer the son of man says;

"You are the light of the world. A city built on a hill cannot be hid.
No one after lighting a lamp puts it under the bushel basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all in the house.
In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven".


"He who believes in me shall do the works I do and far greater than these because I go to the Father and whatever you ask in my name I will do so the Father may be glorified in the son."

John 9:4 NRS
We must work the works of him who sent me while it is day; night is coming when no one can work.

Whoever would serve me must follow me.

The man who comes to me hears my words and puts them to use.

If you continue in my word you are truly my disciple then you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.
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