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Old 02-26-2015, 04:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
Regardless of the "Theological history" I know full well what the bible PLAINLY teaches. As for "self righteousness", I have none. As a son of Adam I am totally depraved and sin touches me at all of my points. Every word, thought and deed I have ever had or done is tainted by the sin that is a result of the Adamic nature I was born with. Praise be to God that He sees this body of corruption as righteous, not because of anything I have done or can do but for Christ's sake alone.

Have you been to Jesus for the cleansing power?
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?
Are you fully trusting in His grace this hour?
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?

Refrain

Are you washed in the blood,
In the soul cleansing blood of the Lamb?
Are your garments spotless? Are they white as snow?
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?

Are you walking daily by the Savior’s side?
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?
Do you rest each moment in the Crucified?
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?

Refrain

When the Bridegroom cometh will your robes be white?
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?
Will your soul be ready for the mansions bright,
And be washed in the blood of the Lamb?

Refrain

Lay aside the garments that are stained with sin,
And be washed in the blood of the Lamb;
There’s a fountain flowing for the soul unclean,
O be washed in the blood of the Lamb!

Refrain
The Lord says this;

Ezekiel 18:20-24

"The person who sins shall die. A child shall not suffer for the iniquity of a parent, nor a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child; the righteousness of the righteous shall be his own, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be his own. 21 But if the wicked turn away from all their sins that they have committed and keep all my statutes and do what is lawful and right, they shall surely live; they shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions that they have committed shall be remembered against them; for the righteousness that they have done they shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord God, and not rather that they should turn from their ways and live? 24 But when the righteous turn away from their righteousness and commit iniquity and do the same abominable things that the wicked do, shall they live? None of the righteous deeds that they have done shall be remembered;
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Old 02-26-2015, 05:48 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peacegiver View Post
The Lord says this;

Ezekiel 18:20-24

"The person who sins shall die. A child shall not suffer for the iniquity of a parent, nor a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child; the righteousness of the righteous shall be his own, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be his own. 21 But if the wicked turn away from all their sins that they have committed and keep all my statutes and do what is lawful and right, they shall surely live; they shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions that they have committed shall be remembered against them; for the righteousness that they have done they shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord God, and not rather that they should turn from their ways and live? 24 But when the righteous turn away from their righteousness and commit iniquity and do the same abominable things that the wicked do, shall they live? None of the righteous deeds that they have done shall be remembered;
The wicked man would be saved, if he turned from his evil ways. The true penitent is a true believer. None of his former transgressions shall be mentioned unto him, but in the righteousness which he has done, as the fruit of faith and the effect of conversion, he shall surely live. The question is not whether the truly righteous ever become apostates. It is certain that many who for a time were thought to be righteous, do so, while verses 26,27 speaks the fulness of pardoning mercy: when sin is forgiven, it is blotted out, it is remembered no more. In their righteousness they shall live; not for their righteousness, as if that were an atonement for their sins, but in their righteousness, which is one of the blessings purchased by the Mediator. What encouragement a repenting, returning sinner has to hope for pardon and life according to this promise! In verse 28 is the beginning and progress of repentance. True believers watch and pray, and continue to the end, and they are saved. In all our disputes with God, he is in the right, and we are in the wrong.


Benson Commentary
Ezekiel 18:24. But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, &c. — “The question here,” say some commentators, “is not whether truly righteous men ever do thus apostatize.” No? Surely it is the question, and the sole question: for if the truly righteous (of whom alone the prophet is speaking, and not of the hypocritically righteous, or mere professors of righteousness) do never apostatize, why does the prophet suppose that they do? Nay, why does he expressly affirm it, saying, When the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity? &c. Which is repeated Ezekiel 18:26, with the addition, And dieth in them; for the iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Surely these words are utterly irreconcilable with the notion, that the truly righteous never fall away. They who maintain this position may, on similar grounds, maintain, and, to be consistent with themselves, ought to maintain, in contradiction to the 21st and 27th verses, that the truly wicked never turn from their wickedness, never truly repent, and save their souls alive. For both events are equally supposed by the prophet frequently to take place, and it is affirmed in similar terms that both do take place. See note on Ezekiel 3:20. Nor is this prophet singular in teaching this doctrine, or this the only passage of Scripture in which it is taught: it is abundantly and explicitly declared and attested in other parts of holy writ, and by other inspired writers, especially those of the New Testament, and even by Christ himself, as the reader may see, if he will take the trouble of consulting the passages quoted in the margin. All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned — For, better had it been for him not to have known the way of righteousness, than after he hath known it, to turn aside from the holy commandment, 2 Peter 2:21. Such a one sins against a clearer light, and greater convictions, and withal is guilty of the highest ingratitude in doing despite unto the Spirit of grace.
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
18:21-29 The wicked man would be saved, if he turned from his evil ways. The true penitent is a true believer. None of his former transgressions shall be mentioned unto him, but in the righteousness which he has done, as the fruit of faith and the effect of conversion, he shall surely live. The question is not whether the truly righteous ever become apostates. It is certain that many who for a time were thought to be righteous, do so, while ver. 26,27 speaks the fulness of pardoning mercy: when sin is forgiven, it is blotted out, it is remembered no more. In their righteousness they shall live; not for their righteousness, as if that were an atonement for their sins, but in their righteousness, which is one of the blessings purchased by the Mediator. What encouragement a repenting, returning sinner has to hope for pardon and life according to this promise! In verse 28 is the beginning and progress of repentance. True believers watch and pray, and continue to the end, and they are saved. In all our disputes with God, he is in the right, and we are in the wrong.
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Why?... - Rather, "Why doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father?"
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
24. righteous—one apparently such; as in Mt 9:13, "I came not to call the righteous," &c., that is, those who fancy themselves righteous. Those alone are true saints who by the grace of God persevere (Mt 24:13; 1Co 10:12; Joh 10:28, 29).
turneth away from … righteousness—an utter apostasy; not like the exceptional offenses of the godly through infirmity or heedlessness, which they afterwards mourn over and repent of.

not be mentioned—not be taken into account so as to save them.

his trespass—utter apostasy.

Matthew Poole's Commentary
After the stating the equity of God’s ways in his dealings with parents and children, and his mercy in dealing with sinners that return according to his own promise, he proceeds to vindicate the equity of his ways in another case.

When, or if; should it so happen at any time. The righteous; one who really had observed the commands of the law, not done the abominations the wicked do, but done the good which the righteous doth, and in the sight of man appears as righteous, and as good as any one; whose apostacy is first full proof of his unsoundness and hypocrisy.

Turneth; changeth his course into sinful practices, like the wicked.

His righteousness; there is a righteousness which is of God, and there is a righteousness which is a man’s own, such as does arise from a man’s own reason and will, improved by common grace, or education, or awed by fears, or swayed by interest, or maintained by some failing spring which may easily dry up; these righteous ones easily fall away, and of such the prophet speaks.

Committeth iniquity; makes sin his work and business, John 8:31 1Jo 3:8,9.

Doeth according to all the abominations; forgets all better rules, derides his own former preciseness, and shakes off all restraints, that he may run to the excess of sin.

Abominations; recounted Ezekiel 18:10-13.

That the wicked man doeth: see Ezekiel 18:21.

Shall he live? do you think I will be so partial as to acquit him from real wickedness, committed with his whole heart, from his last works, which are abominable? Do you think his first heartless, partial, temporary righteousness will counterbalance his last and final apostacy? I tell you nay, but he shall die in it.

All his righteousness that he hath done; though he could produce his own righteousnesses, (as the Hebrew,) and these multiplied to many, all, and that they were really done, yet these should not avail before a just judge; who by a law that requires man should ever be and do what he was and did at best, is to determine his rewards or punishments according to what the man is at last, not according to what he was or seemed to be at first.

Shall not be mentioned; the parable tells us, Matthew 25:44,45, some will plead that they did what they had opportunity of doing, and others, Matthew 7:22, will mention what they have done. But though they may mention these, the just judge will not, nor the law by which they are to be judged will not, allow it for a good and sufficient plea: see the phrase Ezekiel 18:22.

In his trespass that he hath trespassed: this expression shows that this man’s heart was on his sin; in his transgression he transgressed with full bent of mind, with delight and consent he did what he did, and could not say, I do what I would not; or, So then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me, as Romans 7:17. Lest any stumble at sight of infirmities in all, or needlessly disquiet themselves with fears of wrath at last, because they cannot be sinless, yet they do not fall under the character of such as are here threatened.

In them; in these great, wilful, continued, and multiplied sins.

Shall he die; every such obdurate and final apostate shall be condemned and punished temporally and eternally, and therefore look to it, ye wicked Jews, and consider, ye sinful Christians.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness,.... This is to be understood, not of a truly righteous man; for no man can be so denominated from his own righteousness; but from the righteousness and obedience of Christ; and such a man cannot turn from his righteousness; for that is the righteousness of God, and can never be lost; and is an everlasting one, and will always endure; and with which eternal life is inseparably connected: but this is to be interpreted of one that is reckoned so from his own righteousness, what he himself has done, and not from another, from the righteousness of Christ, which he has wrought out; he is one that is righteous in his own esteem, and in the account of others; who is outwardly righteous before men; who trusts in himself that he is righteous, and trusts to his own righteousness; see Ezekiel 33:13; whose righteousness is not an evangelical one, but either a ceremonial righteousness, or at most a mere moral one, consisting of some negative holiness, and a few moral performances, as appears from Ezekiel 18:5; and from such a righteousness as this a man may turn, commit iniquity, sin and die; see 2 Peter 2:20; and is no proof or instance of the apostasy of real saints, true believers, or truly righteous men; besides, this man is represented as a transgressor, or "prevaricator", as the word signifies; a hypocrite, a man destitute of the truth of grace, and of true righteousness:
and committeth iniquity; makes a trade of sinning; goes into a vicious course of life, and continues in it; which a truly gracious man, one that is born again, and has true faith in Christ's righteousness, by which he is justified, can never do, 1 John 3:8;

and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth; such as theft, murder, adultery, idolatry, oppression of the poor, and giving upon usury, Ezekiel 18:10;

shall he live? in his own land, in peace and prosperity, enjoying all manner of good things? he shall not; much less shall he live an eternal life, so living and dying:

all his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: or, "all his righteousnesses" (k); all the good works which he has done will never come into any account, or be of any avail; as they merited nothing, they will meet with no reward; they will not preserve him from present calamity, which his now sinful life exposes him to, nor secure him from eternal ruin; these may be mentioned and pleaded by himself, but to no purpose; God will not mention them, nor take any notice of them, nor the Judge at the great day of account, Matthew 7:22;

in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die; or, for his hypocrisy, "prevarication" (l), and vicious course of life he now lives in, a death of affliction shall come upon him; great calamities and distresses in this world; and, if grace prevent not, eternal death in the other; if he dies in his trespasses and sins, he will die the second death.



Geneva Study Bible
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his {g} righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
(g) That is, the false opinion that the hypocrites have of their righteousness.

So, when Ezekiel is talking about our righteousness, what is this righteousness that he is talking about? Is it according to our works or or deeds? Well, that just can not be. He prefaces the entire section with the statement. "The person who sins shall die". That precludes everyone as we all sin. The righteousness that he is talking about is most obviously something else entirely. Abraham was reckoned righteous by God because of what? We Christians are heirs of the promise God made to Abraham because of what? It's always and only, faith in and trust in God. That is the only basis and there is no other.

Last edited by lucknow; 02-26-2015 at 05:59 PM..
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Old 02-26-2015, 07:24 PM
 
Location: USA
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The whole concept of killing a person to satisfy God's wrath is barbaric. It's what the Aztecs did.
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Old 02-26-2015, 07:57 PM
 
4,217 posts, read 2,763,627 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post

So, when Ezekiel is talking about our righteousness, what is this righteousness that he is talking about? Is it according to our works or or deeds? Well, that just can not be. He prefaces the entire section with the statement. "The person who sins shall die". That precludes everyone as we all sin. The righteousness that he is talking about is most obviously something else entirely. Abraham was reckoned righteous by God because of what? We Christians are heirs of the promise God made to Abraham because of what? It's always and only, faith in and trust in God. That is the only basis and there is no other.
Abraham did what God told him that is why He was righteous. When God told Abraham something what did he do? He told others what God said. Jesus also told others what God said. All the prophets whom Jesus said would be in heaven and referred to them as righteous did the same, they told others what God said.

Jesus said that the words He spoke were the works of the Father and that those who believed in Him would do those works. So to use the words of God as Jesus taught is believing in Him and doing the works of God. That is what makes one righteous and the way into the kingdom of God.

Anyone who acts in truth comes to the light so his deeds are revealed as works of God.
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Old 02-26-2015, 09:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
The whole concept of killing a person to satisfy God's wrath is barbaric. It's what the Aztecs did.
It doesn't even have to be that drastic. Wanting to force others through the law to live as you THINK your God wants YOU to live is equally ridiculous. If God can't enforce His own laws . . He is impotent and not much of a God. Anything we are forced to do is useless to God as it reflects nothing about our state of mind.So It makes no sense for us to try to enforce God's laws on others.
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Old 02-26-2015, 09:52 PM
 
4,217 posts, read 2,763,627 times
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The Lord says this;

"When the lion roars who will not fear it, when the Lord God speaks who will not prophecy?"

"Let the man who has my words speak my words and speak the truth."

"Faithfulness has disappeared, the word of God is gone from their speech."
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Old 02-26-2015, 10:15 PM
 
Location: Arizona
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Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
Mike gave some pretty good explanations of it. Are you able to refute his posts?
Or is that still your answer?
It's a popular, but erroneous conception. Let your conscience be your guide?
We are accountable, and responsible for our own actions; thoughts and deeds.
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Old 02-27-2015, 12:55 AM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peacegiver View Post
Abraham did what God told him that is why He was righteous. When God told Abraham something what did he do? He told others what God said. Jesus also told others what God said. All the prophets whom Jesus said would be in heaven and referred to them as righteous did the same, they told others what God said.

Jesus said that the words He spoke were the works of the Father and that those who believed in Him would do those works. So to use the words of God as Jesus taught is believing in Him and doing the works of God. That is what makes one righteous and the way into the kingdom of God.

Anyone who acts in truth comes to the light so his deeds are revealed as works of God.
If what you are saying was true which it isn't by the way, then none of those men you cite would be in heaven. We are ABSOLUTELY NOT JUSTIFIED BY OUR WORKS. Our works can only condemn us. Were the prophets obedient to what God told them to do? Well, sometimes yes and sometimes no. Abraham twice not once but twice tried pimping his wife Sarah out in order to spare himself some trouble and also to gain favour. Elijah ran all the way across the country and hid from God. The entire history of Jacob and Essau is a great example of God's sovereign choice. As a child I was always confused why Jacob was favoured by God over his brother when it seemed he was such a liar, thief and supplanter. Esau on the other hand seemed like a pretty decent guy. Romans 9 is an interesting study of the doctrine.
Romans 9:7-13English Standard Version (ESV)

7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

My favourite illustration is the only man in the bible God calls a man after God's own heart". King David of course. Now King David was guilty of adultery and of murder and yet he was a prophet, king and great man of God. How could that be if we needed to justify ourselves by our works? Well, of course it couldn't be. We are only considered righteous because we have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and because we have been born again we believe in what God has said and are trusting in His promises to those who believe and trust in Him. The Spirit also gives us the desire to obey God but we are such failures at that are we not? Thanks be to God for the forgiveness He has made available for us through Jesus our LORD
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Old 02-27-2015, 09:26 AM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,476,496 times
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Originally Posted by Peacegiver View Post
The Lord says this;

"When the lion roars who will not fear it, when the Lord God speaks who will not prophecy?"

"Let the man who has my words speak my words and speak the truth."

"Faithfulness has disappeared, the word of God is gone from their speech."
I would change that word to "blind Faithfulness". Or 'reject all reason "except by my religion" faithfulness", the word of god is gone from your speech.

Like the rock record, ya know god wrote the record?
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Old 03-19-2015, 11:06 AM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
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nope it was the SIN that was destroyed. Not the sinner, via substitution or any other mumbo jumbo. Christ became SIN for us and then died to take away the dread fear of death and give us the sure and certain hope of resurrection in Him. He died FOR us, not in our place for we all still die. He took SIN on him and then died so that we no longer feel shame before God for He doesn't see it or reckon it to our account. It is as far from us as the east is from the west.
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