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At the time of Christ, everybody . . . including His disciples . . . were deathly afraid of Spirits! They were not just a little afraid . . . they were extremely terrified. They could accept the "carnal milk" and parables with the faith that all would eventually be made clear. But they would never have accepted the idea of Christ becoming a quickening Soirit . . . despite being told He was The illusion was essential . . . but so were the contradictory verses and clues violating the laws of physics for physical bodies. It was intentional so that future more enlightened audiences would discern the "solid food" that our ancestors were incapable of accepting. "He who has ears to hear . . "
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one then, though I don't think we're too far off from each others' point of view. I'm postulating that a "spiritual body" has physical form, yet it does not have to abide by the laws of physics as we understand them. You seem to suggest that no physical form can flout the laws of physics like Christ's did, leading you to conclude that He is only a spirit. The two points of view are really only disagreeing over semantics and theological theory-crafting.
Like I said, I don't know why having physical form matters. I also don't know why lacking physical form is in any way superior. If Christ has a physical body and that body can routinely flout the laws of physics and nature, then having such a physical form does not limit Him. Anything He could do as a quickening spirit as you think of Him, he can also do as a transcendent physical form + spirit as I think of Him.
It isn't that lacking a physical form is superior (though it probably is) . . . it is just the reality. NONE of us ever sees anyone dead rise up with their physical body changed in any way shape or form. Our love of the physical is the result of our conditioning to associate our Self with the physical vessel that contains us. We are reluctant to let go of that conditioning. It is a very strong conditioning. We will have no need whatsoever of a physical body after death. Our spiritual bodies will more than suffice . . . and will not be plagued by the nonsense of eating, urinating, farting and defecating, etc.
He has, but not from flesh and bones, there are different bodies, as Paul says in 1. Cor 15.
Are you saying Jesus' resurrected body was not one of flesh and bones? He specifically pointed out to His apostles that He had a body of flesh and bones!
This is what confuses me. If Jesus was made a spirit with a spiritual body then what happened to his earthly body? I would think the same thing would have happened that happens to us when we pass on. Our spirits leave our earthly bodies behind.
I believe the scriptures make it very clear as to what happened to Jesus' physical body. It was resurrected! It was given new, immortal life when the spirit He commended into His Father's hands at His death, re-entered it. Jesus pointed out that His body physical in nature. He made a very specific point of saying that He had a body of flesh and bones. And during the 40-day post-resurrection period that He spent with His disciples, He had this body. He was seen ascending into Heaven with it. Clearly, it didn't just disintegrate at some point between Earth and Heaven. And the Bible tells us He will return in like manner. Of all the truths taught in the Bible, the truth of a physical resurrection is, in my opinion, the one that is most clearly taught and that has the least possible alternative interpretations.
At the time of Christ, everybody . . . including His disciples . . . were deathly afraid of Spirits! They were not just a little afraid . . . they were extremely terrified. They could accept the "carnal milk" and parables with the faith that all would eventually be made clear. But they would never have accepted the idea of Christ becoming a quickening Soirit . . . despite being told He was The illusion was essential . . . but so were the contradictory verses and clues violating the laws of physics for physical bodies. It was intentional so that future more enlightened audiences would discern the "solid food" that our ancestors were incapable of accepting. "He who has ears to hear . . "
That is purely conjecture on your part, Mystic. What it gets right down to is that you are saying Jesus was dishonest in how He presented himself to His disciples. The people of Jesus' day may very well have been afraid of spirits; people today are, so why not people anciently. I suspect they'd have been a bit taken back by a dead body being returned to life, too, though. But that was the miracle of the resurrection. To me the idea that Jesus would have bent over backwards trying to prove that He was something He wasn't is not only contrary to His nature as a person completely lacking in deceit, cunning, and dishonesty. If we can't believe what He specifically said about Himself, how can we know what we can believe?
I have to agree with godofthunder here, and will briefly restate what I believe he already very eloquently said. A physical body (i.e. a corporeal body with flesh and bones) is not necessarily the same thing as a mortal body. Jesus' resurrected body was not a mortal body. It was an immortal body, sustained not by blood but by spirit. An an immortal body, it is perfect. It is no longer subject to disease, decay, deformity or death. It is perfect and eternal. You seem to be awfully hung up on the topic of whether it is corporeal or not. Like godofthunder, I don't get why. Why is a non-corporeal body superior to a corporeal body if it can do everything a corporeal body can do and more?
At the time of Christ, everybody . . . including His disciples . . . were deathly afraid of Spirits! They were not just a little afraid . . . they were extremely terrified. They could accept the "carnal milk" and parables with the faith that all would eventually be made clear. But they would never have accepted the idea of Christ becoming a quickening Soirit . . . despite being told He was The illusion was essential . . . but so were the contradictory verses and clues violating the laws of physics for physical bodies. It was intentional so that future more enlightened audiences would discern the "solid food" that our ancestors were incapable of accepting. "He who has ears to hear . . "
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
It isn't that lacking a physical form is superior (though it probably is) . . . it is just the reality. NONE of us ever sees anyone dead rise up with their physical body changed in any way shape or form. Our love of the physical is the result of our conditioning to associate our Self with the physical vessel that contains us. We are reluctant to let go of that conditioning. It is a very strong conditioning. We will have no need whatsoever of a physical body after death. Our spiritual bodies will more than suffice . . . and will not be plagued by the nonsense of eating, urinating, farting and defecating, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
That is purely conjecture on your part, Mystic. What it gets right down to is that you are saying Jesus was dishonest in how He presented himself to His disciples. The people of Jesus' day may very well have been afraid of spirits; people today are, so why not people anciently. I suspect they'd have been a bit taken back by a dead body being returned to life, too, though. But that was the miracle of the resurrection. To me the idea that Jesus would have bent over backwards trying to prove that He was something He wasn't is not only contrary to His nature as a person completely lacking in deceit, cunning, and dishonesty. If we can't believe what He specifically said about Himself, how can we know what we can believe?
I have to agree with godofthunder here, and will briefly restate what I believe he already very eloquently said. A physical body (i.e. a corporeal body with flesh and bones) is not necessarily the same thing as a mortal body. Jesus' resurrected body was not a mortal body. It was an immortal body, sustained not by blood but by spirit. An an immortal body, it is perfect. It is no longer subject to disease, decay, deformity or death. It is perfect and eternal. You seem to be awfully hung up on the topic of whether it is corporeal or not. Like godofthunder, I don't get why. Why is a non-corporeal body superior to a corporeal body if it can do everything a corporeal body can do and more?
Believe me, Katz I know exactly why you and GOT (and so many others) have an issue with this idea. I accept it as a necessary part of fighting the status quo in religious belief. It is not really because you think Jesus was less than forthcoming with His disciples . . . because the very phrase "He who has ears to hear". . . (which I deliberately used) . . . indicated that He had no compunctions about being less than forthright in His explanations in deference to the higher goal of gaining understanding and acceptance. There is no way on earth that His disciples or anyone else during that era would have accepted that He was risen without a physical appearance. There was also no way He could have appeared as a Spirit and achieved anything but panic. The idea that we could survive death in other than a physical body was inconceivable to them.
He spoke the language of that day, things, that they should have understood.
And there was more he could have said, but they would not have comprehended.
Are you saying Jesus' resurrected body was not one of flesh and bones? He specifically pointed out to His apostles that He had a body of flesh and bones!
You take my reply out of context. The originally post was: Why might a spirit not also have a body? My response was: He ( a spirit) has, but not of flesh and bones. We (as humans) are living in natural bodies and are not spirits like angels etc. We are bound here on earth by space and time and have bodies made from earth, which perish and are mortal (dies). In death our soul and spirit leaves this natural body and lives in a spiritual body, not bound by time or space without a physical body. In the resurrection the dead physical body is raised and changed in an immortal one, which is a spiritual body of flesh and bones, where our soul and spirit lives in forever, united with Christ, and is not limited to space and time. But this all refers to the First Resurrection, the believers who die in Christ as condition. The next resurrection 1000 years later for all the rest of humans should be different, as Paul says, there are different bodies raised.
This is a silly question I am sure, but when watching something the other day I realized that I never put much thought in the resurrection of Jesus. Did Jesus walk out of the tomb in his earthly resurrected body and go up into heaven, or did just his spirit rise?
From what I understand people did see Jesus after he resurrected, but I thought it was more like a spiritual body, kinda like seeing a ghost/spirit, and that his physical body would still be in the tomb.
First of all, please keep in mind ' flesh ' ( Physical ) can Not inherit the kingdom of God - 1st Corinthians 15:50
God resurrected Jesus back in his pre-human spirit body - Acts 3:15
Jesus used different materialized bodies after he was resurrected.
That is why Jesus was Not immediately recognized by his followers.
The woman at the tomb mistook the materialized Jesus as the gardener.
On the road to Emmaus his followers did Not recognize the materialized body but thought Jesus a stranger.
See Luke 24 vs 13 - 48, and notice at John 20 vs 19,26 the doors were shut. A physical body could Not have appeared through shut doors.
Jesus later ascended to heaven in his spirit body - Acts 1:9
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