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Old 03-06-2015, 12:58 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
12,688 posts, read 6,683,373 times
Reputation: 6593

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
Ephesians says that Christians are predestined from the foundations of the world.

What you prefer to think doesn't really truth though, does it?

The Bible disagrees. There are a myriad of passages stating that in our natural state we hate God, are at war with him, etc. None of us can claim to seek after God...not one of us.

I agree. The good news is that he regenerates us and changes our hearts.

The Bible tells us that we are to do good works out of love for God. We don't do those works to EARN salvation (lest we be able to boast), but we do them because we love God.
Vizio, we could go the rounds throwing scriptures back and forth. I'm just refusing to go there because I know it's pointless. Suffice it so say that the Bible supports my point of view just fine. I think you're completely misunderstanding every passage of scripture you want use to establish the steel trap in heaven mentality, but I know I'll never convince you of that. So I'm not going to try.

No Christian that I know of is actually earning their way into heaven. That's a tired old red herring argument and fundamentally untrue. The issue is not about how we get into a state of being bound for Heaven in this life. We all agree that is only possible through Christ. The disagreement is all about whether you can walk away from Christ thereafter. You say it's impossible. About 95% of Christians in the world disagree and say you most certainly can walk away from your own salvation.

I only actually posted in this thread to point out that in spite of their rhetoric, Born Again Christians aren't as different from the rest of us as people tend to think. Born Again Christians do in fact believe in doing good deeds and performing good works out of love for God. When those unfamiliar with it first encounter the doctrine of "once saved always saved" they almost universally see it as a convenient excuse to live lives of total carnality and debauchery. The natural expectation is for Born Against to be lazy, greedy, amoral, licentious etc. I've known more enough of you to know that the exact opposite is true. Born Again Christians are among the best of people actually. You'll have to forgive me for trying to point that fact out.
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Old 03-06-2015, 01:13 PM
 
19,942 posts, read 17,088,667 times
Reputation: 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Vizio, we could go the rounds throwing scriptures back and forth. I'm just refusing to go there because I know it's pointless. Suffice it so say that the Bible supports my point of view just fine.
Not if you look at the entirety of Scripture.
Quote:

I think you're completely misunderstanding every passage of scripture you want use to establish the steel trap in heaven mentality, but I know I'll never convince you of that. So I'm not going to try.

No Christian that I know of is actually earning their way into heaven. That's a tired old red herring argument and fundamentally untrue. The issue is not about how we get into a state of being bound for Heaven in this life. We all agree that is only possible through Christ. The disagreement is all about whether you can walk away from Christ thereafter. You say it's impossible. About 95% of Christians in the world disagree and say you most certainly can walk away from your own salvation.
If you think it's up to you to maintain or keep your salvation, then you ARE suggesting that Jesus isn't enough. Paul had a scathing rebuke of the Judaizers, who thought just that, in Galatians.
Quote:
I only actually posted in this thread to point out that in spite of their rhetoric, Born Again Christians aren't as different from the rest of us as people tend to think. Born Again Christians do in fact believe in doing good deeds and performing good works out of love for God. When those unfamiliar with it first encounter the doctrine of "once saved always saved" they almost universally see it as a convenient excuse to live lives of total carnality and debauchery. The natural expectation is for Born Against to be lazy, greedy, amoral, licentious etc. I've known more enough of you to know that the exact opposite is true. Born Again Christians are among the best of people actually. You'll have to forgive me for trying to point that fact out.
Thank you for the compliment. I'm sorry if I took it the wrong way. What you say is certainly a possibility - there are a lot of people that think that the Gospel is a license to sin. In fact, Paul said such a comment in Romans, when he stated that we should never consider such a notion.
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Old 03-07-2015, 07:44 AM
 
Location: Someplace Wonderful
5,177 posts, read 4,763,648 times
Reputation: 2587
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Which refers to this passage:

John 6:39 -- And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

But you're putting your own spin on this passage. At what point are we given to Christ by God? You are a Born Again Christian so of course you will say that this occurs at the instant a person is "saved." But it never said that.

I prefer to think more along the same lines as Wardendresden. We should do our best and live the best lives that we can. When are Christ's sheep "safely gathered in" and no longer capable of being lost? Probably when we die or sometime thereafter. I think you can put yourself onto the straight and narrow path that will lead to eternal life, but it is a path and not a single step at one instant of time. And no it's not about earning your way to Heaven. It's about doing your best and stumbling and falling and failing a lot. I cannot put together even one day lived perfectly. I'm still 100% dependent on Christ. But I think he expects more from his sheep than to turn in the general direction of the Gates of Heaven for one instant in time in order to get there. I think we remain in a "saved" state as we refuse to give up and keep trying. But I don't think God is going drag anyone kicking and screaming into the Kingdom of Heaven.

It's all silly anyways. If Born Again Christians were so thoroughly against works, they'd never ever ever do anything good for the rest of their lives for fear of being guilty of trying to "earn their way into heaven." Their church-going would be never mention doing good deeds, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, except to avoid doing such things. And Born Again Christians would of necessity be the worst human beings possible -- all because they have to avoid "earning their way into heaven."

We both know perfectly well that this isn't true. You and yours believe in works. You just think you don't.
Excellent post!

I am not allowed to give you more reputation at this time. Wish i could
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Old 03-07-2015, 07:56 AM
 
Location: Someplace Wonderful
5,177 posts, read 4,763,648 times
Reputation: 2587
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
is that he regenerates us and changes our hearts.

The Bible tells us that we are to do good works out of love for God. We don't do those works to EARN salvation (lest we be able to boast), but we do them because we love God.
Good works is a fundamental part of the Christian life. Jesus Himself said so.

I remain flabbergasted that some modern Christians, who claim the bible is inerrant, seek out every loophole to excuse themselves from what Jesus himself said - be right with God. Be right with your neighbor. Eternal life is yours.

I myself personally believe that God has tired of how we distort His message. I believe God Himself is trying to direct us to a new plateau of understanding.

When God speaks to us, do we listen?
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Old 03-07-2015, 08:26 AM
 
Location: North Carolina
1,543 posts, read 1,305,146 times
Reputation: 184
godofthunder -
I thoroughly agreed with you when you said that the path to eternal life is a path and not a single moment. Jesus said in Matt. 10:[22] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
h
If we fail to persevere until the end, this passage makes it clear that we will not be savedl

Also Heb. 10:[36] For ye have need of patience, that, AFTER ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

AFTER we have done the will of God is the time when we receive the promise.

Believing in Christ as the Savior of the world is the first step on the path to eternal life. But our own human efforts will not get us into heaven. We must lay down our will and our way and beg God through His Son to give us the Spirit of the Holy Ghost to make it possible for us to do His will in this life
Isaiah said in the Old Testament that all our righteousnesses were as filthy rags in the sight of God. He is looking for a broken and contrite heart (Psalm 51). Once we have the Holy Spirit doing the works of God in and through us, then these are the works that are acceptable to God, and we have nothing of which we can boast.
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Old 03-07-2015, 08:32 AM
 
Location: North Carolina
1,543 posts, read 1,305,146 times
Reputation: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckmann View Post
Good works is a fundamental part of the Christian life. Jesus Himself said so.

I remain flabbergasted that some modern Christians, who claim the bible is inerrant, seek out every loophole to excuse themselves from what Jesus himself said - be right with God. Be right with your neighbor. Eternal life is yours.

I myself personally believe that God has tired of how we distort His message. I believe God Himself is trying to direct us to a new plateau of understanding.

When God speaks to us, do we listen?
You make some excellent points in that postl
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Old 03-07-2015, 09:04 AM
 
19,942 posts, read 17,088,667 times
Reputation: 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckmann View Post
Good works is a fundamental part of the Christian life. Jesus Himself said so.

I remain flabbergasted that some modern Christians, who claim the bible is inerrant, seek out every loophole to excuse themselves from what Jesus himself said - be right with God. Be right with your neighbor. Eternal life is yours.

I myself personally believe that God has tired of how we distort His message. I believe God Himself is trying to direct us to a new plateau of understanding.

When God speaks to us, do we listen?
I've never suggested that we should not do good works. It's how the world will know that we are Christians.
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Old 03-07-2015, 09:32 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 10,822,945 times
Reputation: 1869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
I've never suggested that we should not do good works. It's how the world will know that we are Christians.
Perhaps you could correct a rather negative impression you give whenever anyone speaks of the importance of doing good work in the Christian life. Instead of challenging as to how much is "required," point out that they don't "buy" anything, but are a hallmark of the Christian life and that we need to be "spurring" each other in "love and good deeds." How DO you "spur" your congregation to "love and good deeds?"
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Old 03-07-2015, 10:29 AM
 
Location: North Carolina
1,543 posts, read 1,305,146 times
Reputation: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Perhaps you could correct a rather negative impression you give whenever anyone speaks of the importance of doing good work in the Christian life. Instead of challenging as to how much is "required," point out that they don't "buy" anything, but are a hallmark of the Christian life and that we need to be "spurring" each other in "love and good deeds." How DO you "spur" your congregation to "love and good deeds?"
I believe it is as John Bunyan wrote in his treatise on Christian Behavior Being the Fruits of True Christianity. He said that, "though we are justified freely by grace through Christk before God, yet we are justified before men by our works [James 2:[18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.] Nay, a life of holiness, flowing from faith in us that are saved by grace, it doth justify that grace before the world that justifies us before God."
Jonathan Edwards in 1851 wrote something very similar to Bunyan's remarks. “I am come now to the last distinguishing mark of holy affections that I shall mention: XII. Gracious and holy affections have their exercise and fruit in Christian practice. . . John 15:14, ‘Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.’. . If the old nature be indeed mortified, and a new and heavenly nature infused, then may it well be expected, that men will walk in newness of life, and continue to do so to the end of their days. . . Some may be ready to object against what has been said of Christian practice being the chief evidence of the truth of grace, that this is a legal doctrine, and that this making practice a thing of such great importance in religion, magnifies works, and tends to lead men to make too much of their own doings, to the diminution of the glory of free grace, and does not seem well to consist with the great gospel doctrine of justification by faith alone. It is our works being the price of God’s favor, and not their being the sign of it, that is the thing which is inconsistent with the freeness of that favor. . . It is not the worthiness or loveliness of our works, or anything in us, which is in any wise accepted with God, as a balance for the guilt of sin. Thus we are justified only by the righteousness of Christ, and not by our righteousness.” [A Treatise Concerning Religious Affections.]

Last edited by Robert M Prince; 03-07-2015 at 10:47 AM..
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Old 03-07-2015, 10:33 AM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,475,332 times
Reputation: 2070
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Vizio, we could go the rounds throwing scriptures back and forth. I'm just refusing to go there because I know it's pointless. Suffice it so say that the Bible supports my point of view just fine. I think you're completely misunderstanding every passage of scripture you want use to establish the steel trap in heaven mentality, but I know I'll never convince you of that. So I'm not going to try.

No Christian that I know of is actually earning their way into heaven. That's a tired old red herring argument and fundamentally untrue. The issue is not about how we get into a state of being bound for Heaven in this life. We all agree that is only possible through Christ. The disagreement is all about whether you can walk away from Christ thereafter. You say it's impossible. About 95% of Christians in the world disagree and say you most certainly can walk away from your own salvation.

I only actually posted in this thread to point out that in spite of their rhetoric, Born Again Christians aren't as different from the rest of us as people tend to think. Born Again Christians do in fact believe in doing good deeds and performing good works out of love for God. When those unfamiliar with it first encounter the doctrine of "once saved always saved" they almost universally see it as a convenient excuse to live lives of total carnality and debauchery. The natural expectation is for Born Against to be lazy, greedy, amoral, licentious etc. I've known more enough of you to know that the exact opposite is true. Born Again Christians are among the best of people actually. You'll have to forgive me for trying to point that fact out.
I am not sure. so back to describing what I don't know with what I do know.

Question?
once you mature, are you mature the rest for your life? That doesn't mean perfect, just "mature". Can the same be said for Grace? Hyper mature, hyper grace?

I don't know. I don't even know what I don't know. I would lean on the side of "no", but that truly is a guess.
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