Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I am surprised that folks just dont ask their local rabbi when shabbat begins and ends.
But why would anyone do that? After all, what do the Jews know?
PS two of my sons each spend two years in Israel studying torah. For a few years they kept shabbat faithfully. So I know a little bit about when shabbat begins and ends. But I am not going to get into this argument because I think it is silly.
I am surprised that folks just dont ask their local rabbi when shabbat begins and ends.
But why would anyone do that? After all, what do the Jews know?
PS two of my sons each spend two years in Israel studying torah. For a few years they kept shabbat faithfully. So I know a little bit about when shabbat begins and ends. But I am not going to get into this argument because I think it is silly.
Have fun, kids!
I must say I'm diffident about asking Jews about this stuff, but I have looked it up (also Roman timekeeping, in relation to the third or 6th hour discrepancies) and it is pretty clear that the new day begins at evening when three stars are visible and ends the next evening.
This is interesting as I had a discussion with Alt. Thinker on the Passover supper. In fact, I now have to admit that you could have Jesus eat the passover supper as soon as it began in the evening (though you wouldn't have the Paschal lamb -shank as the lambs were only killed during the day - which was when Jesus was being crucified) went to Gethsemane and was arrested on the passover night, which was Friday. A trial during the day of the Passover which was also the day of preparation for the Sabbath the next day (that is Passover fell on the day before the sabbath). So that is possible and Jesus indeed could both eat the passover (perhaps according to a slightly different, Pharisee calendar) and be sacrificed along with the Passover lambs on the Friday.
Perhaps a silly discussion, as you say, but I'm sorta intrigued by the problem.
So far as I can see, Matthew is simply saying it was after the sabbath (Saturday) had ended. As it did, at evening. All the night was the Sunday (first day) night. Matthew then says that it was after the (Sunday) night towards the dawn of Sunday (the first day) the women approached the tomb.
Mark says the same. Sabbath was past, and the women, bearing spices approached the tomb at sunrise.
Luke also, saying they rested on the sabbath. But, on the first day of the week (Sunday, starting on the Saturday evening, remember) they took along the spices to the tomb, finding the door open (The Gospel of Peter suggests that, if they had found it closed they would just chuck the pots and jars against the rock).
Interestingly, Luke follows Mark here and Matthew's account is set before the sunrise so the descending angel can frighten away the tomb -guard (but not the women). The reason he opens the tomb is to show the women where Jesus had been as he was long gone. When the women ran to the disciples, Jesus pops up in front of them.
John says that the day of crucifixion was the day of preparation and the following one was a sabbath. That is clear; Crucifixion was on Friday and the next day was a Sabbath - Saturday.John says that, on the first day of the week (Sunday - starting the previous evening, remember) while it was still dark, the women approached the tomb.
Thus, give or take morning darkness or morning daylight, they all agree on the dates and the Sunday morning.
What I can't see, SAAN, is what evidence you have for saying that Jesus rose early on the first day which is to say, when it began on the Sabbath evening so there was all the Sunday night before the women came to the tomb.
It is possible, but it is also possible that Jesus rose no more than ten minutes before the women arrived. What makes you say the previous evening?
Sorry forrepetition. Must have hit Quote' rather than 'edit'.
I was referring to Matthew 28, I chose all the interpretations I could find to compare side by side since modern bibles keep getting changed around to however who is interpreting it feels it should sound.
Matthew 28:1 (1611 King James Bible)
In the ende of the Sabbath, as it began to dawne towards the first day of the weeke, came Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre.
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. - King James Version (Cambridge Edition)
Now late on the sabbath day, as it began to dawn toward the first `day' of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. - American Standard Version (1901)
Now late on the Sabbath, when the dawn of the first day of the week was near, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the place where his body was. - Basic English Bible
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn towards the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary to see the sepulcher. - Webster's Bible
After the Sabbath, in the early dawn of the first day of the week, Mary of Magdala and the other Mary came to see the sepulchre. - Weymouth Bible
Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. - World English Bible
And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre, - Youngs Literal Bible
When looking from the1611 KJV and onwards it shows it was still the Sabbath (Sunset Saturday) and going on to the 1st day of the week (Darkness Sunday) and he rose. Per the earlier bibles it places his resurrection at Saturday afternoon and modern bibles say after the Sabbath. But when looking at Mark, Luke and John, they all agree they got there either while it was still dark or when the sun rose, only to notice the grave was empty, not that he rose at sunrise.
If I said on New Years Eve as began to dawn on the the New Year, you would think its approaching midnight, so in biblical times, if it is beginning to dawn on the next day, which begins at sunset and they are still referring to the previous day, they are referring to when it gets dark is the next day.
I think it was Sunday right after the sunset on Saturday evening which is considered the first day of the week. First century Christian writings also states he rose on the 1st of the week as well, so thats my other source to believe.
Were the days of the week even called Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday when Jesus died? If I were a true scholar, I would already know the answer to this.
If you need "a day" you are taking the religion to literally. It was 2000 years ago, the name of the day is pointless. The cross, in part, was a lesson. The name of the day that he died is as meaningless as your middle name is in defining you.
That is exactly what I was thinking. I don't know why people major on such things.
this above is the timeline of the triduum.
we don't know if He rose exactly AT DAWN on Sunday.
It is possible, because the women didn't get there until
after dawn. Days were not reckoned by dawns but by dusks.
He was "dead" over the course of 3 days.
Dead on Friday. Dead on Saturday.
Dead on Sunday (which began on Saturday dusk).
3 nights and 3 days ...72 hours...Friday at sundown till Saturday Sunup is night 1...Sunup Saturday till sundown Saturday is day 1...Sundown Saturday till Sunup Sunday is night 2...Sunup Sunday till sundown Sunday is day 2...Sundown Sunday till Sunup Monday is night 3...Sunup Monday till Sundown Monday is day 3...
So how does your calculations equal 3 nights and 3 days?...72 hours...
BTW...Crucifixion on Friday 9am-3pm > Dusk (1 day), he may have hung on the cross till 3PM, but he wasn't dead till just before the Sabbath was about to begin...That is why they hurried to take him down from the cross and place him in the tomb...And left him there unattended through the Sabbath and that is why Mary and the others went to the tomb with the spices to finish the preparations of his body...And he wasn't there when they arrived just before sunup...So, how long was the tomb empty before they arrived there and made that discovery?...
I was referring to Matthew 28, I chose all the interpretations I could find to compare side by side since modern bibles keep getting changed around to however who is interpreting it feels it should sound.
Matthew 28:1 (1611 King James Bible)
In the ende of the Sabbath, as it began to dawne towards the first day of the weeke, came Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre.
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. - King James Version (Cambridge Edition)
Now late on the sabbath day, as it began to dawn toward the first `day' of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. - American Standard Version (1901)
Now late on the Sabbath, when the dawn of the first day of the week was near, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the place where his body was. - Basic English Bible
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn towards the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary to see the sepulcher. - Webster's Bible
After the Sabbath, in the early dawn of the first day of the week, Mary of Magdala and the other Mary came to see the sepulchre. - Weymouth Bible
Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. - World English Bible
And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre, - Youngs Literal Bible
When looking from the1611 KJV and onwards it shows it was still the Sabbath (Sunset Saturday) and going on to the 1st day of the week (Darkness Sunday) and he rose. Per the earlier bibles it places his resurrection at Saturday afternoon and modern bibles say after the Sabbath. But when looking at Mark, Luke and John, they all agree they got there either while it was still dark or when the sun rose, only to notice the grave was empty, not that he rose at sunrise.
If I said on New Years Eve as began to dawn on the the New Year, you would think its approaching midnight, so in biblical times, if it is beginning to dawn on the next day, which begins at sunset and they are still referring to the previous day, they are referring to when it gets dark is the next day.
I think it was Sunday right after the sunset on Saturday evening which is considered the first day of the week. First century Christian writings also states he rose on the 1st of the week as well, so thats my other source to believe.
I'm afraid that doesn't work. In terms of New years' eve, which is western reckoning of hours, that would be at the end of the old year and getting towards midnight. In fact in the Jewish (and Gospel) reckoning, the first day began at the evening as it got dark on the Saturday Rising then would mean that Jesus rose on the sabbath, not the first day (Sunday). And the four gospels all seem to indicate the time around sunrise on the Sunday.
Jesus could have risen at any time from before midnight on the Sabbath to dawn on the Sunday. There is no real way of knowing.
However "And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre," - Youngs Literal Bible
is so much at variance with the other readings, that I wonder how they arrived at it. We may have to look at the Greek. In any case, Matthew has to be considered against the other gospels. if they indicate Dawn on Sunday, that's the way Matthew should read, too.
(p.s) Hmm a quick look art the Greek does appear to talk of 'getting to the first day', but I think we do have to consider the other gospels. However, Mystic phd would consider this a very minor matter and he'd be right.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-14-2015 at 08:49 AM..
I'm afraid that doesn't work. In terms of New years' eve, which is western reckoning of hours, that would be at the end of the old year and getting towards midnight. In fact in the Jewish (and Gospel) reckoning, the first day began at the evening as it got dark on the Saturday Rising then would mean that Jesus rose on the sabbath, not the first day (Sunday). And the four gospels all seem to indicate the time around sunrise on the Sunday.
Jesus could have risen at any time from before midnight on the Sabbath to dawn on the Sunday. There is no real way of knowing.
However "And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre," - Youngs Literal Bible
is so much at variance with the other readings, that I wonder how they arrived at it. We may have to look at the Greek. In any case, Matthew has to be considered against the other gospels. if they indicate Dawn on Sunday, that's the way Matthew should read, too.
(p.s) Hmm a quick look art the Greek does appear to talk of 'getting to the first day', but I think we do have to consider the other gospels. However, Mystic phd would consider this a very minor matter and he'd be right.
The first day, Yom Echad, begins (dawns) just after Sundown Saturday...
The first day, Yom Echad, begins (dawns) just after Sundown Saturday...
Yes, that's what SAAN is saying, and that reading seems to suggests a resurrection at that time. That is not how the gospels are usually read, and it may require some thought...
Yes, that's what SAAN is saying, and that reading seems to suggests a resurrection at that time. That is not how the gospels are usually read, and it may require some thought...
Good grasp of Math, maybe?...
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
In any case, Matthew has to be considered against the other gospels. if they indicate Dawn on Sunday, that's the way Matthew should read, too.
