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We are constantly arguing this one, but I thought it would be a good idea to list under separate threads the 5 points that were originally laid out when "Fundamentalism" in institutional Christianity had its formal start in the conclusions of a conference met to counter "modernist" thought concerning matters of the Christian faith.
Notice that the original point was about "inspiration" and the fact is that the originators of the movement took one very limited view of the nature of inspiration and enshrined it as the only possible meaning. They seem to derive this from the literal translation of the Koine as "god breathed," which was not a term coined for the description of the process of writing the documents that became the Bible, but a term used to indicate a source of idea and initiative for writing anything from a poem to a play or a history, etc.(the divine Muses). The natural follow-up that we see so often is that if God inspired it verbally (as opposed to providing the idea and initiative, but not the words) He would protect it. Never mind that it was never promised anywhere and such a view gives authority over the guide that WAS promised, at least according to the Bible.
We are constantly arguing this one, but I thought it would be a good idea to list under separate threads the 5 points that were originally laid out when "Fundamentalism" in institutional Christianity had its formal start in the conclusions of a conference met to counter "modernist" thought concerning matters of the Christian faith.
Notice that the original point was about "inspiration" and the fact is that the originators of the movement took one very limited view of the nature of inspiration and enshrined it as the only possible meaning. They seem to derive this from the literal translation of the Koine as "god breathed," which was not a term coined for the description of the process of writing the documents that became the Bible, but a term used to indicate a source of idea and initiative for writing anything from a poem to a play or a history, etc.(the divine Muses). The natural follow-up that we see so often is that if God inspired it verbally (as opposed to providing the idea and initiative, but not the words) He would protect it. Never mind that it was never promised anywhere and such a view gives authority over the guide that WAS promised, at least according to the Bible.
Other points to follow with their own threads
While the Book of Revelation had not yet been written when Paul wrote 2 Timothy 3:16, John stated at the beginning of that book that the Revelation which he set down in writing was given by God (the Father) to Jesus Christ who communicated it to John by His angel. That sounds pretty God-breathed to me!!!
Rev. 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,
Last edited by Michael Way; 03-19-2015 at 09:20 PM..
While the Book of Revelation had not yet been written when Paul wrote 2 Timothy 3:16, John stated at the beginning of that book that the Revelation which he set down in writing was given by God (the Father) to Jesus Christ who communicated it to John by His angel. That sounds pretty God-breathed to me!!!
Rev. 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,
Excellent! So, what you have is what one writer says about what he has written in one place, and you will note that what he received was a vision, which he then described from his viewpoint: "I saw....." Doesn't sound like he was given the words to write, does it?
Now let's look at what another writer said about what he was writing in another place: 1 Cor 7:25 "25Now concerning virgins I have no command of the Lord, but I give an opinion as one who by the mercy of the Lord is trustworthy." Here, Paul specifically states that the words written were NOT from inspiration of the plenary or any other direct kind.
We are constantly arguing this one, but I thought it would be a good idea to list under separate threads the 5 points that were originally laid out when "Fundamentalism" in institutional Christianity had its formal start in the conclusions of a conference met to counter "modernist" thought concerning matters of the Christian faith.
Notice that the original point was about "inspiration" and the fact is that the originators of the movement took one very limited view of the nature of inspiration and enshrined it as the only possible meaning. They seem to derive this from the literal translation of the Koine as "god breathed," which was not a term coined for the description of the process of writing the documents that became the Bible, but a term used to indicate a source of idea and initiative for writing anything from a poem to a play or a history, etc.(the divine Muses). The natural follow-up that we see so often is that if God inspired it verbally (as opposed to providing the idea and initiative, but not the words) He would protect it. Never mind that it was never promised anywhere and such a view gives authority over the guide that WAS promised, at least according to the Bible.
Other points to follow with their own threads
it's funny. all we have to do is look at the history of the bible to see this. If the bible is not literal then it cannot be true or false. Then we can check to see its true value. It's sad to me that "they" don't understand that it comes up clean when looked at honestly.
Excellent! So, what you have is what one writer says about what he has written in one place, and you will note that what he received was a vision, which he then described from his viewpoint: "I saw....." Doesn't sound like he was given the words to write, does it?
And will you make the same claim about Revelation chapters two and three when John was told to write to each of the seven churches of Asia and say _________. That was direct dictation where John wrote exactly what Jesus told him to write.
What you fail to realize is that while most of the Bible is not direct dictation where the writers were given the exact words to write, the writers of Scripture were so superintended by God the Holy Spirit that they wrote without error using their own words. Robert. B. Thieme JR. in commenting on the principle of inspiration stated;
The Greek noun θεόπνευστος (theopneustos), or "God-breathed" (2 Tim. 3:16), entails the principle of inspiration and involves both inhale and exhale. In the inhale, the Holy Spirit communicated to the human authors, like Paul, God's complete and coherent message (2 Sam. 23:2-3; Isa. 59:21; Jer. 1:9; Matt. 22:42-44; Mark 12:36; Acts 4:24-25; 28:25). In the exhale, the human writers of Scripture so wrote that without waiving their human intelligence, their vocabulary, their personal feelings, their literary style, their personality, or individuality, God's complete message to man was permanently recorded with perfect accuracy in the original languages of Scripture. [Canonicity, p.5]
Quote:
Now let's look at what another writer said about what he was writing in another place: 1 Cor 7:25 "25Now concerning virgins I have no command of the Lord, but I give an opinion as one who by the mercy of the Lord is trustworthy." Here, Paul specifically states that the words written were NOT from inspiration of the plenary or any other direct kind.
What Paul actually said was that he had no command from the Lord on the matter. He gave a personal opinion. Was he not allowed to give a personal opinion? And his opinion was recorded and preserved in the Scriptures as were things such as Eve's misstatement of God's command in Gen. 3:3, where she said that it was not allowed to even touch the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, when God had said nothing about not touching it; Satan's lie to the woman in Gen. 3:4, Samson's immoral lifestyle, Solomon's turning away from the Lord because of the many foreign women in his life, and many other things. All of that is recorded in the Scriptures because God wanted it all recorded for our benefit. It is all a part of God's communicated word to man.
Quote:
Where is the "verbal inspiration" idea now?
There are a number of theories concerning the nature of inspiration such as, 1.) The Mechanical or Dictation theory, 2.) Partial Inspiration, 3.) Degrees of Inspiration, 4.) The concept and Not the Words Inspired,5.) Natural Inspiration, 6.) Mystical Inspiration, and 7.) Verbal, Plenary Inspiration.
These theories or views are attempts to define the relationship between the dual authorship of the Bible with God as the divine author, and the human writers of Scripture who penned them. I already gave Thieme's comments on verbal plenary inspiration at the top of this post. Lewis Sperry Chafer in his Systematic Theology regarding verbal plenary inspiration writes;
By verbal inspiration is meant that, in the original writings, the Spirit guided in the choice of the words used. However, the human authorship was respected to the extent that the writers' characteristics are preserved and their style and vocabulary are employed, but without the intrusion of error.
By plenary inspiration is meant that the accuracy which verbal inspiration secures, is extended to every portion of the Bible so that it is in all its parts both infallible as to truth and final as to divine authority. This, as has been stated, is the traditional doctrine of the church and that set forth by Christ and the apostles. This teaching preserves the dual authorship in a perfect balance, ascribing to each that consideration which is accorded it in the Bible. [Systematic Theology, Chafer, vol. 1, p.71]
2 Peter 1:20-21 tells us how God used the human writers of Scripture. They were moved or borne along by the Holy Spirit.
2 Peter 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21] for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
The writers of Scripture frequently stated that God spoke to them.
2 Sam. 23:2The Spirit of the LORD spoke through me, His word was on my tongue. 3] The God of Israel spoke; the Rock of Israel said to me," The one who rules the people with justice, who rules in the fear of God,
Isa. 59:21 "As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mouth of your offspring's offspring," says the LORD, "from now and forever."
Jeremiah 1:9 Then the LORD stretched out His hand and touched my mouth, and the LORD said to me, "Behold, I have put My words in your mouth.
Acts 4:24 And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, “Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, 25]who through the mouth of our father David, your servant, said by the Holy Spirit, “‘Why did the Gentiles rage, and the peoples plot in vain?
Acts 28:25 So, when they had solemnly testified and spoken the word of the Lord, they started back to Jerusalem, and were preaching the gospel to many villages of the Samaritans. 26]Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Rise and go toward the south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.†This is a desert place. 27] And he rose and went. And there was an Ethiopian, a eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure. He had come to Jerusalem to worship 28] and was returning, seated in his chariot, and he was reading the prophet Isaiah.
The Scriptures record and preserve all that God wished to communicate to man. This includes not only His commands and prophecies, but all the various failings of man, and even their personal opinions such as Paul's in 1 Cor. 7:25.
And will you make the same claim about Revelation chapters two and three when John was told to write to each of the seven churches of Asia and say _________. That was direct dictation where John wrote exactly what Jesus told him to write.
What you fail to realize is that while most of the Bible is not direct dictation where the writers were given the exact words to write, the writers of Scripture were so superintended by God the Holy Spirit that they wrote without error using their own words. Robert. B. Thieme JR. in commenting on the principle of inspiration stated;........
........
The Scriptures record and preserve all that God wished to communicate to man. This includes not only His commands and prophecies, but all the various failings of man, and even their personal opinions such as Paul's in 1 Cor. 7:25.
No, I will not say that about specific quotations being dictated. I pointed out that some things seem to be, but to claim "God breathed" for everything is clearly not warranted.
So, basically, you are saying that God wanted Paul to say that what he was writing was not a message from God? To what purpose?
No, I will not say that about specific quotations being dictated. I pointed out that some things seem to be, but to claim "God breathed" for everything is clearly not warranted.
So, basically, you are saying that God wanted Paul to say that what he was writing was not a message from God? To what purpose?
Paul stated that all Scripture is God-breathed. Not some of it. It is your opinion then which is unwarranted. And again, God allowed Paul to state his opinion.
And again, all of the Book of Revelation is God-breathed since the revelation was given by God the Father to Jesus Christ to John which he was told to record. The Book of Revelation is the Word of God. As is the rest of the Bible, the individual Books of which were written under divine inspiration.
Rev. 1:19 "Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.
Last edited by Michael Way; 03-20-2015 at 11:55 AM..
What is the difference between "allowed Paul to state his opinion" and "god breathed" which you apparently take to mean "told what to say?"
I am trying to get to the bottom of "god breathed" according to your usage.
According to my usage it means that God urged Paul to write his experience of living in the Spirit to advise those with less or different experience.
I've already explained what the principle of divine inspiration - 'God-breathed' means at the top of post #5.
Now regarding Paul's opinion in 1 Corinthians 7:25, while Paul had no direct command from the Lord on the matter concerning virgins, he nevertheless spoke as an inspired apostle whose opinion was trustworthy but which those who were virgins were free to accept or reject. And he stated that his opinion was trustworthy. As an apostle he could speak for the Lord even though he had not been given a direct command to speak on the matter.
1 Cor. 7:40 But in my opinion she is happier if she remains as she is; and I think that I also have the Spirit of God.
To put it another way, God didn't have a problem with the advice that Paul gave. He approved it and allowed that opinion to be recorded as part of the Scriptures.
I've already explained what the principle of divine inspiration - 'God-breathed' means at the top of post #5.
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Right, I guess I got confused with all the other explanations you supplied as examples (I guess) of wrong understanding of the meaning of the term, but which are held by other fundamentalists. Sorry about that.
Wow. Complicated.
Have you ever heard of the KISS rule?
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