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Not a theory. Before salvation no one is righteous in God's sight. We are all born with a fallen nature as a result of Adam's original sin, and spiritually dead. (Gen. 2:17; Rom. 3:9-18; Rom.5:12-19; Eph. 2:1).
The underlying issue is whether or not new born babies are born damned. The Garden of Eden story does support the idea that all the descendants of Adam and Eve became sin-capable, but it does not support the idea that we are born stained, guilty and worthy of hell before we actually do anything sinful ourselves.
And therefore Jesus came into the world by means of a virgin birth in order to avoid being born with an old sin nature and under the penalty of Adam's sin.
And therefore Jesus came into the world by means of a virgin birth in order to avoid being born with an old sin nature and under the penalty of Adam's sin.
David certainly viewed himself as a sinner living in a sinful world, but those verses do not speak of his own sin, but the nature of the people who gave him birth and raised him. There is no penalty for Adam's sin but TO Adam and Adam would not have sinned if he were not capable of it (self evident), and that reason given for virgin birth plays to a corrupt perception of our nature and that of our relationship with God. (Known as "Reformed Theology)
And therefore Jesus came into the world by means of a virgin birth in order to avoid being born with an old sin nature and under the penalty of Adam's sin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift
David certainly viewed himself as a sinner living in a sinful world, but those verses do not speak of his own sin, but the nature of the people who gave him birth and raised him. There is no penalty for Adam's sin but TO Adam and Adam would not have sinned if he were not capable of it (self evident), and that reason given for virgin birth plays to a corrupt perception of our nature and that of our relationship with God. (Known as "Reformed Theology)
While that is your opinion it is not the belief of most theologians and it is not teaching of the Bible. The simple fact of the matter is that Paul tells us in Romans 5:18 that ONE transgression resulted in the condemnation of all men. We are not condemned by our own personal sins, but as Paul stated, by Adam's transgression.
Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19] For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.
Paul plainly stated that it was by one man's (Adam's) trespass, that we were all made sinners. It was Adam's sin that led to condemnation for all men. We are not condemned on the basis of our personal sins, but on the basis of Adam's original sin. Now you might not like that, and you might not accept it, but that is what the Bible teaches. Our personal sins were never imputed to us for judgment but were instead imputed to Christ as He hung on the cross and paid the penalty for them in our place.
That perception is clarified in Romans 5:12 for those who misunderstand it: "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
While that is your opinion it is not the belief of most theologians and it is not teaching of the Bible. The simple fact of the matter is that Paul tells us in Romans 5:18 that ONE transgression resulted in the condemnation of all men. We are not condemned by our own personal sins, but as Paul stated, by Adam's transgression.
Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19] For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.
Paul plainly stated that it was by one man's (Adam's) trespass, that we were all made sinners. It was Adam's sin that led to condemnation for all men. We are not condemned on the basis of our personal sins, but on the basis of Adam's original sin. Now you might not like that, and you might not accept it, but that is what the Bible teaches. Our personal sins were never imputed to us for judgment but were instead imputed to Christ as He hung on the cross and paid the penalty for them in our place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift
That perception is clarified in Romans 5:12 for those who misunderstand it: "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
'All sinned' is past tense. Did you personally commit personal sin before you were ever born? Did you commit any personal sins at the time that Paul wrote Romans 5:12? No you did not. You didn't exist yet.
God views all mankind as participating in Adam's sin because the entire human race was seminally in Adam who was the representative man or federal head of the human race. All men were condemned because of Adam's sin. Not on the basis of their own personal sins. In Adam all die. We are born spiritually dead due to Adam's sin.
1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
While that is your opinion it is not the belief of most theologians and it is not teaching of the Bible. The simple fact of the matter is that Paul tells us in Romans 5:18 that ONE transgression resulted in the condemnation of all men. We are not condemned by our own personal sins, but as Paul stated, by Adam's transgression.
Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19] For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.
Paul plainly stated that it was by one man's (Adam's) trespass, that we were all made sinners. It was Adam's sin that led to condemnation for all men. We are not condemned on the basis of our personal sins, but on the basis of Adam's original sin. Now you might not like that, and you might not accept it, but that is what the Bible teaches. Our personal sins were never imputed to us for judgment but were instead imputed to Christ as He hung on the cross and paid the penalty for them in our place.
Actually, he says "all men" which may denote adults. We were born sin-capable and there was pretty much zero chance for any of us to make it to adulthood without sinning and sinning a lot. But the passage is not explicitly saying, "all human beings" so we are left uncertain.
Ultimately, you see the Bible as infallible and I do not. Most theologies do indeed agree with you because they are all offspring of the Catholic Church. This means that virtually all translations of the Bible are going to support original sin. Original sin is a Catholic doctrine and you inherited it from them. The Imperial Roman Church was very effective in stamping out all doctrinal dissention, but did the early Catholic Church get it right? I think we can agree that they got it wrong with praying to saints, the immaculate conception, celibacy, the primacy of Rome, etc.
To me, the idea that babies are born damned offends the Holy Spirit. I accept that over scripture on this matter. The scriptures probably don't mean what you think they mean, but even if they were absolutely explicit, the Spirit trumps the Bible anyways.
Actually, he says "all men" which may denote adults. We were born sin-capable and there was pretty much zero chance for any of us to make it to adulthood without sinning and sinning a lot. But the passage is not explicitly saying, "all human beings" so we are left uncertain.
Ultimately, you see the Bible as infallible and I do not. Most theologies do indeed agree with you because they are all offspring of the Catholic Church. This means that virtually all translations of the Bible are going to support original sin. Original sin is a Catholic doctrine and you inherited it from them. The Imperial Roman Church was very effective in stamping out all doctrinal dissention, but did the early Catholic Church get it right? I think we can agree that they got it wrong with praying to saints, the immaculate conception, celibacy, the primacy of Rome, etc.
To me, the idea that babies are born damned offends the Holy Spirit. I accept that over scripture on this matter. The scriptures probably don't mean what you think they mean, but even if they were absolutely explicit, the Spirit trumps the Bible anyways.
That's just an attempt to explain away what the passage says because it's offensive to you. But you don't speak for the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit never contradicts the Bible. Further, it is not an issue of improper translations.
It's obvious that you don't view the Bible as being infallible. But I do, and I hold to the Biblical teaching of original sin.
That's just an attempt to explain away what the passage says because it's offensive to you. But you don't speak for the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit never contradicts the Bible. Further, it is not an issue of improper translations.
It's obvious that you don't view the Bible as being infallible. But I do, and I hold to the Biblical teaching of original sin.
It is entirely possible that you are correct in your presentation of the perceptions of those writers, but I don't believe that it is what Jesus taught, and if I did, I would be looking for another faith system.
For me to accept such a doctrine would be merely craven.
It is entirely possible that you are correct in your presentation of the perceptions of those writers, but I don't believe that it is what Jesus taught, and if I did, I would be looking for another faith system.
For me to accept such a doctrine would be merely craven.
We are just going to have to disagree.
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