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The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod teaches that the Holy Spirit never contradicts the bible.
Does it contradict? I asked everyone who claims it contradicts to provide some examples of the contradictions, and no one was able to provide one. One person said the Spirit told him women should be allowed in church leadership, which contradicts the Bible, but when asked to explain, the explanation revealed it wasn't the Spirit talking, it was human reasoning. It sounds more reasonable to allowed women in such positions.
I was never taught that the Christian God was "subject" to the bible, rather I was taught that the Christian God had chosen to reveal himself via the bible alone. The analogy was this: a distant relative you've never met writes you a letter describing everything about him/herself and his/her wishes for you. Although I'd say a better analogy would be a nasty dictator describing his absolute power as well as the horrible punishments I'd suffer if I refused to respect his authoritah.
As you said, they taught us that the Holy Spirit (God) would never contradict the bible. That makes God subject to the bible.
Does it contradict? I asked everyone who claims it contradicts to provide some examples of the contradictions, and no one was able to provide one. One person said the Spirit told him women should be allowed in church leadership, which contradicts the Bible, but when asked to explain, the explanation revealed it wasn't the Spirit talking, it was human reasoning. It sounds more reasonable to allowed women in such positions.
First, this is untrue. You've asked this question repeatedly and it has been answered. But for Freak's sake...
The spirit of the God who is love contradicts that God would ever command a nation to commit genocide, or a father to sacrifice his son, or give men permission to rape the women who were the "spoils of war". The spirit of the God who is love would not condone an eye for an eye, either.
That's illogical. God is unchanging. Are you saying He would give us a new revelation?
It is not illogical when you understand that the bible is not infallible nor inerrant.
And, if God was ever in the habit of giving revelations, and God is unchanging, then why would you say God has changed into a God who doesn't give revelations anymore?
Does it contradict? I asked everyone who claims it contradicts to provide some examples of the contradictions, and no one was able to provide one. One person said the Spirit told him women should be allowed in church leadership, which contradicts the Bible, but when asked to explain, the explanation revealed it wasn't the Spirit talking, it was human reasoning. It sounds more reasonable to allowed women in such positions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
First, this is untrue. You've asked this question repeatedly and it has been answered. But for Freak's sake...
The spirit of the God who is love contradicts that God would ever command a nation to commit genocide, or a father to sacrifice his son, or give men permission to rape the women who were the "spoils of war". The spirit of the God who is love would not condone an eye for an eye, either.
There's a start for you.
Amen, Pleroo. Once they stop pretending the Spirit is some amorphous thing and accept what it is claimed to be . . . agape love . . . all the ambiguity and confusion disappears. It is an absolute standard of truth. God IS Spirit. God IS agape love. The Spirit by which we test everything in the Bible or anywhere else is the Spirit of agape love . . . who IS God.
Freak, my father, like yours, is a pastor (retired). I told him a few years ago that I had read "The Language of God" which was written by a genetic scientist and Christian who, of course, accepted the theory of evolution. I said that I was beginning to understand how it was possible for someone to not take the OT bible stories as literally true. He (and my mother) berated me for even picking up said book, for ever asking questions or doing any research that might lead me to think the bible was not literally true and infallible, and told me, in no uncertain terms, that if I ever came to believe that any of the bible that was supposedly presented as historical fact, was not literally, factually true, then I COULD NOT BELIEVE IN GOD. If the bible isn't true at any point, they said, then neither is God real. (I took them at their word, and stopped believing that God existed when I realized that the bible was not true at every point. And then later I realized that their view of the matter was mistaken.)
Yeah, that definitely sounds like the LC-MS mindset. I was never explicitly taught that I couldn't believe in the Christian God without holding to biblical inerrancy, but it was implied. I actually considered joining the Eastern Orthodox Church to get away from that. The Eastern Orthodox are not dependent on Sola Scriptura since the church itself (and it's traditions) is the final souce of authority rather than the bible. For them, the bible only has authority because the church says so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
I would say that that is definitely putting the bible, at the very least, on par with God, wouldn't you?
I would say so, yes. Thankfully I never remember the doctrine of inerrancy being taken to quite that extreme. I have heard there are different "factions" in the LC-MS; maybe some of the ultra-conservative congregations take it that far?
Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness by seeking him through the bible.
What your doing is judgeing the intents of the heart and the guidance of God who leads people to learn of the Truth. I know of no one who believes that the Bible is the method of salvation but rather a Gift from God to point us to Christ as the Way, the Truth and the Life of God. Also, the Scriptures are atypical ways of how God thinks and deals with mankind but no one can understand properly without the Mind of Christ. The good news is that a measure of faith is given to everyone who come into the world but many just choose to ignore it in favor of their sinful ways.
The Spirit puts into perspective what is written but also gives personal guidance through the Mind of Christ for the individual who seeks with all the heart.
Do not underestimate the Scriptures when anointed by the Spirit to divide both soul and spirit and put within the individual the power to see Christ as the cure for all of man's woes if he just put his faith in the One who can transform to New Life in Christ.
GAL 3:24-25 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."
So now, if one is "born again", they have the Mind of Christ whether as a babe in Christ or fully matured and the Scriptures are made alive by the Spirit to correct false understandings and to lay down the universal Truths that all should adhere to by faith and love for God.
One can take a thousand years to learn even the most fundamental Truths or learn faster by doing what God says to do, 2TIM 2:15 "Study to shew yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
I never heard anyone say "Bible has the authority of the Spirit". Can you quote someone actually saying it?
Exactly what is the difference between saying that and saying that the Spirit will never contradict the Bible?
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Once they stop pretending the Spirit is some amorphous thing and accept what it is claimed to be . . . agape love . . . all the ambiguity and confusion disappears. It is an absolute standard of truth. God IS Spirit. God IS agape love. The Spirit by which we test everything in the Bible or anywhere else is the Spirit of agape love . . . who IS God.
