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Again, you quote things out of context...This was speaking of the JEWISH people, the TRIBES, that had turned away and were sinning...You can't take this and apply it to yourself, or any other goyim for that matter...It is addressed to HaShem about the Jewish Tribes...
Isa 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel not acknowledge us; thou, O LORD, art our father; our everlasting Redeemer is thy name.
Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways? Hast thou hardened our heart to thy fear? Return for thy slaves, for the tribes of thine inheritance.
Isa 63:18 The people of thy holiness have possessed the promised land but a little while: our adversaries have trodden down thy sanctuary.
Isa 63:19 We have been like those over whom thou didst never rule, who were never called by thy name.
Isa 64:1 Oh that thou would rend the heavens, that thou would come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence,
Isa 64:2 as when the melting fire burns, the fire causes the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the Gentiles may tremble at thy presence!
Isa 64:3 As thou didst come down when thou didst terrible things which we did not look for, that the mountains flowed down at thy presence.
Isa 64:4 Nor have men heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither has the eye seen a God beside thee, that thou might do it again for the one who waits in him.
Isa 64:5 Thou didst come out to meet him that with rejoicing had worked righteous ness. In thy ways they remembered thee. Behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: thy ways are eternal, and we shall be saved.
Isa 64:6 But we were all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses as filthy rags; and we all fell as the leaves of a tree; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Isa 64:7 And there is none that calls upon thy name, that wakes himself up to take hold of thee; therefore, thou hast hid thy face from us and hast allowed us to wither in the power of our iniquities.
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; such that we all are the work of thy hands.
Isa 64:9 Be not wroth very sore, O LORD, neither remember iniquity for ever; behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people.
Isa 64:10 Thy holy cities are a wilderness, Zion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation.
Isa 64:11 Our house of our Sanctuary and of our glory, where our fathers praised thee, was burned up with fire; and all our precious things were destroyed.
Isa 64:12 Wilt thou refrain thyself regarding these things, O LORD? Wilt thou hold thy peace and afflict us very sore?
Here it is with Rashi Commentary:
5.And we all have become like one unclean, and like a discarded garment are all our righteous deeds, and we all have withered like a leaf, and our iniquities carry us away like the wind. ה.וַנְּהִי כַטָּמֵא כֻּלָּנוּ וּכְבֶגֶד עִדִּים כָּל צִדְקֹתֵינוּ וַנָּבֶל כֶּעָלֶה כֻּלָּנוּ וַעֲו*ֹנֵנוּ כָּרוּחַ יִשָּׂאֻנוּ:
And we all have become like one unclean: since the righteous have departed from us.
and like a discarded garment: Heb. עַדִּים. [Jonathan renders:] and like a discarded garment, like a rejected garment, which all say, ‘Remove.’ עִדִּים is the Aramaic translation of removal.
and we… have withered like a leaf: Heb. וַנָּבֶל, and we have withered like a leaf; fletrire in French.
and our iniquities carry us away like the wind: [Jonathan renders:] And with our sins we were carried away like the wind.
It is a Jew lamenting about himself and other Jews, to HaShem...Nothing about goyim there, except that they trampled the sanctuary...
No, I have not taken anything out of context. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). All of our righteousnesses are as filthy rags to God (Isa. 64:6).
The misunderstanding is not Paul's. No one is righteous in the eyes of God by virtue of their own righteousness. As stated in Isaiah 64:6;
Isa. 64:6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Abraham was counted righteous when he believed the Lord.
Genesis 15:6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
No unbeliever is righteous in the sight of God no matter how good he is from the standpoint of man. When a person believes on Christ for eternal life he is imputed or credited with the righteousness of Christ. So then all believers from a positional standpoint are seen as justified in the eyes of God. From the experiential standpoint a believer is justified by his works (James 2:24), but this has nothing to do with his eternal salvation.
In Romans, after explaining that righteousness comes through faith alone in Christ alone (positional righteousness [having been credited with Christ's own righteousness]), Paul then goes on to say that obedience results in righteousness (Rom. 6:16) (experiential righteousness). These are issues dealing with both justification and experiential sanctification.
No. David says otherwise. David was approved by God the Father and by Jesus. The words of Paul show he cannot be trusted. Believing in Jesus and God is doing their works as Abraham did. To act in truth is believing.
Anyone who acts in truth comes to the light so their deeds are revealed as works of God.
When the Devil quotes Scripture, it's not, really, to deceive, but simply that the masses are so ignorant of theology that somebody has to teach them the elementary texts before he can seduce them.
Paul Goodman
People should not be seduced into thinking that they are filthy rags.
No, I have not taken anything out of context. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). All of our righteousnesses are as filthy rags to God (Isa. 64:6).
Yea, ya have...Romans 3:23 is written by Paul...Isaiah 64:6 is part of a whole and you have taken one line out of context to attempt to bolster your weak point...It doesn't fly in face of logic and reason...
I am sure you believe that Elijah was taken to heaven straight away...However, if he was not righteous, but sinful and missing the mark, how could he be permitted in the presence of the Almighty...The reason that he was taken up without dying is because he was righteous and not sinful...He walked in ALL the ways of the G-d...Just as Yeshua told you to do...
Yea, ya have...Romans 3:23 is written by Paul...Isaiah 64:6 is part of a whole and you have taken one line out of context to attempt to bolster your weak point...It doesn't fly in face of logic and reason...
I am sure you believe that Elijah was taken to heaven straight away...However, if he was not righteous, but sinful and missing the mark, how could he be permitted in the presence of the Almighty...The reason that he was taken up without dying is because he was righteous and not sinful...He walked in ALL the ways of the G-d...Just as Yeshua told you to do...
I have taken nothing out of context. Again, everyone has sinned and therefore is unrighteous in God's sight. Therefore all of our righteous deeds are as filthy rags in God's sight. The only way to be seen as righteous in God's eyes is to be credited or imputed with Christ's own righteousness at the moment you simply place your faith in Christ alone for eternal life.
Before Jesus went to the cross a person was declared righteous and therefore eternally saved by believing in the promise of the Messiah's coming. If you die without having received Christ as Savior, then at the great white throne judgment you will by default have to depend on your own imperfect righteousness to earn eternal life. But your own imperfect righteousness simply cannot measure up to God's perfect standards no matter how good you are humanly speaking, and therefore you will be sent to the lake of fire forever.
The purpose of the Mosaic Law which was given to Israel was to show that no one can keep the law perfectly and therefore needs a Savior. The Mosaic Law therefore pointed the way to Jesus who was able to keep the law perfectly. Only by trusting in Him can anyone be eternally saved.
at the risk of maybe angering everybody, I might suggest that we all should try to avoid regarding ourselves as so naturally totally depraved and completely evil as to fall into complete despair (of being worthy of either Divine forgiveness or love) OR so naturally good or at least perfectible that we become complacent and presumptuous since we can ultimately "do it on our own".
we are all in absolute need of God's mercy and grace to become what we can, should, and MUST be to fully become His righteous children.
yet, with all our inherent imperfections our sinful natures, He loved us (and has always done so from the very beginning of human history and from every person's individual conception) enough to reach out to us through prophets (Elijah for example) patriarchs (Enoch, perhaps), and covenants to eventually send His only Son into the World to give us all that we need to achieve that goal of being able to love God as He has loved us.
He is always reaching out in love to us even if we think we're never going to be righteous enough to "deserve" that love (maybe like the publican in the temple feared) or even if we think we're already righteous enough (like the Pharisee in the temple at the same time) and don't really "need" that love---He still reaches out because of His love but we have to be brave enough (to overcome our fears) and humble enough (to overcome spiritual pride) to reach out and accept His help, His mercy, His love to be truly righteous.
Last edited by georgeinbandonoregon; 03-29-2015 at 11:47 AM..
Reason: more info.
The misunderstanding is not Paul's. No one is righteous in the eyes of God by virtue of their own righteousness. As stated in Isaiah 64:6;
Isa. 64:6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Abraham was counted righteous when he believed the Lord.
Genesis 15:6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
No unbeliever is righteous in the sight of God no matter how good he is from the standpoint of man. When a person believes on Christ for eternal life he is imputed or credited with the righteousness of Christ. So then all believers from a positional standpoint are seen as justified in the eyes of God. From the experiential standpoint a believer is justified by his works (James 2:24), but this has nothing to do with his eternal salvation.
In Romans, after explaining that righteousness comes through faith alone in Christ alone (positional righteousness [having been credited with Christ's own righteousness]), Paul then goes on to say that obedience results in righteousness (Rom. 6:16) (experiential righteousness). These are issues dealing with both justification and experiential sanctification.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peacegiver
No. David says otherwise. David was approved by God the Father and by Jesus. The words of Paul show he cannot be trusted. Believing in Jesus and God is doing their works as Abraham did. To act in truth is believing.
Anyone who acts in truth comes to the light so their deeds are revealed as works of God.
David was a sinner just as everyone else is. He committed adultery and had Bathsheba's husband murdered. Yet he was a man after God's own heart because he was faithful to God. But he was righteous in God's sight because he had been imputed with the righteousness of Christ by believing the promise of the Savior's coming. You keep confusing, or simply cannot understand that while the believer is to live a life of obedience to God he is justified and declared righteous by faith in Christ.
Again, it is not Paul's words which can't be trusted.
at the risk of maybe angering everybody, I might suggest that we all should try to avoid regarding ourselves as so naturally totally depraved and completely evil as to fall into complete despair (of being worthy of either Divine forgiveness or love) OR so naturally good or at least perfectible that we become complacent and presumptuous since we can ultimately "do it on our own".
we are all in absolute need of God's mercy and grace to become what we can, should, and MUST be to fully become His righteous children.
yet, with all our inherent imperfections our sinful natures, He loved us (and has always done so from the very beginning of human history and from every person's individual conception) enough to reach out to us through prophets, patriarchs, and covenants to eventually send His Son into the World to give us all that we need to achieve that goal of being able to love God as He has loved us.
He is always reaching out in love to us even if we think we're never going to be righteous enough to "deserve" that love (maybe like the publican in the temple feared) or even if we think we're already righteous enough (like the Pharisee in the temple at the same time) and don't "need" that love---He still reaches out because of His love but we have to be brave enough and humble enough to reach out and accept his hand, his help to be truly righteous.
This is true. While we are all totally depraved, that does not mean that we all are as evil as we could potentially be. There is probably some good in everyone. Calvinism takes the issue of total depravity beyond what the Bible teaches. But that human goodness simply isn't acceptable to God which is why we must be credited with the perfect righteousness of Christ at the moment of faith alone in Christ alone.
Positionally speaking we are declared righteous and justified when we accept Christ as Savior. Then, as believers, if we pursue spiritual growth we progress toward experiential sanctification.
And yes, God is always reaching out in love. He so loved the world, not Satan's cosmic system, but the world of unsaved men, that He sent His Son to die as our substitute on the cross so that by believing on Him we could have everlasting life.
I have taken nothing out of context. Again, everyone has sinned and therefore is unrighteous in God's sight. Therefore all of our righteous deeds are as filthy rags in God's sight.
Fate of the Righteous.
The coming of the righteous into the world is a boon to it; their departure therefrom a loss (Sanh. 113a). The ungodly are sentenced to stay in Gehenna twelve months; then they are released at the intercession of the righteous (Yalḳ. Shim'oni, to Mal. 593). In Gan 'Eden, God will dance withthe righteous (Ta'an. 31a); there they will sing God's praise (Ex. R. vii.). Resurrection is reserved for the righteous alone (Gen. R. xiii.; Ta'an. 7a). In "the world to be" the righteous sit with crowns on their heads and delight in the radiancy of the Shekinah (Ber. 17a). They partake of Leviathan (Pesiḳ. 188b; B. B. 74b). Their crowns are those that were worn at Sinai (Sanh. 111b; Shab. 88a). The of Ps. xvi. 11 is read ("seven"), and is taken to refer to the seven classes of righteous that enjoy God's glory (Sifre 67a).
The "righteous" are often identified with Israel, and the "ungodly" with the heathen, non-Israelites (Tan., Bemidbar, 19; Lev. R. xiii. 1). But this should not be taken as a general rule. The non-Israelites of whom the Rabbis had knowledge were Romans, whose cruelty and profligacy made "non-Israelite" and "ungodly" exchangeable terms. Still, righteous ones are found among "the nations" (e.g., Noah, Jethro; see Proselyte), and these righteous will have a share in the kingdom to come (Tos. Sanh. xiii.).
Thus righteousness was not a privilege of the Jew; it was rather an obligation. As Judaism does not teach original sin its views on righteousness have no relation to the doctrine of justification (see Atonement). The Jewish prayer-book, the depository of the faith of Israel, contains as a part of the morning liturgy: "Lord of all the worlds, not in reliance upon our righteous deeds do we lay our supplications before Thee, but trusting in Thy manifold mercies." This summarizes the doctrine of the Synagogue upon the subject. Righteousness is a duty which brings no privileges. Self-righteousness is not the key-note of Israel's confession. Simply as descendants of Abraham is it incumbent upon Israel to proclaim the Shema'. The modern Jewish connotation of righteousness carries an ethical (both personal and social), not a liturgical emphasis. - RIGHT AND RIGHTEOUSNESS - JewishEncyclopedia.com
But he was righteous in God's sight because he had been imputed with the righteousness of Christ by believing the promise of the Savior's coming.
Where exactly does it state this?...
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