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Hard to comment / compare this prearranged set-up conducted by the evangelical right and that of two normal people who walk in off the street just ask for a wedding cake. Crowder's use of every gay stereotype in the book while prancing around the store is laughable as well.
I would refuse service to this nut job as well, fearing there was so much more going on behind the curtain.
Also, I think the camera was front and center making this ridiculous show even more frightening. Just another red herring courtesy of the evangelical Right.
At the very LEAST, using an example of BIGOTRY to JUSTIFY BIGOTRY is really sad. JOHN 11:35
There are so many things you have said here that are wrong.
First, it clearly states it was a hidden camera.
The camera doesn't change the behavior. You are making assumptions you cannot prove.
These people have no way of knowing if he was really gay or not.
Nope, we have been over that ground quite a bit. The business should not be forced to sell a product it does not wish to sell, but it should provide a product that it does sell without discrimination. If you don't make wedding cakes, then it is a non-issue. If you do make wedding cakes, you should sell them without discrimination.
A wedding cake is much more than just an item though. It's as much of a service as anything. You are being asked to participate or be a part of something that your religion disagrees with. I know we do not agree on this topic, but I think a wedding cake is much different than simply going to a store and getting a cake. That should be obvious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo
It is about equal rights. If bakers, photographers, and whoever else were not refusing customers based on their orientation, none of this would be an issue.
This is not accurate.
They aren't refusing customers. They are refusing a service. There is a difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo
And I do. Discriminatory business practices based on imposing one persons religious beliefs on another are wrong. Either do business fairly and equally or don't do business.
But, right or wrong, Christianity gets the lion's share of the focus, because, in the US, Christianity is the 800 lb gorilla. Complaining about Muslims using the law to legitimize their religious bigotry in the US, makes about as much sense as complaining that Christianity is responsible for the social ills of Saudi Arabia.
-NoCapo
Then, again, you aren't focused on a cause other than attacking a group of people. If your goal is to focus on a majority, then you are still ignoring other cases where it still happens.
A wedding cake is much more than just an item though. It's as much of a service as anything. You are being asked to participate or be a part of something that your religion disagrees with. I know we do not agree on this topic, but I think a wedding cake is much different than simply going to a store and getting a cake. That should be obvious.
We do disagree on this.
When you ordered your wedding cake, what did you get? A cake. The product that you purchased was a cake. What service did you receive, what participation in your ceremony did the baker have that was not entirely encapsulated in delivering to you the cake that you ordered?
Quote:
Originally Posted by justtitans
This is not accurate.
They aren't refusing customers. They are refusing a service. There is a difference.
Unless they do not make custom decorated cakes, they are not refusing a service, they are refusing to perform the same "service", make a specific product that they do provide for a specific group of customers. They are discriminating against specific customers.
You seem to be really confused about the English Language. Making a "gay wedding cake" cannot be the service you are referring to, because the is no such thing as a "gay wedding cake". Cakes do not have sexual orientation. What they are refusing to make is a "wedding cake" for gay people. They make wedding cakes for other people, some of whom may be having just as sinful a union, they want to discriminate based on the customer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justtitans
Then, again, you aren't focused on a cause other than attacking a group of people. If your goal is to focus on a majority, then you are still ignoring other cases where it still happens.
I don't know how I am ignoring it, I have condemned it without reservation. It is wrong for Muslims to discriminate, just like it is Christians. If you want to have the moral high ground here, stop supporting discrimination. That's all there is to it.
When you ordered your wedding cake, what did you get? A cake. The product that you purchased was a cake. What service did you receive, what participation in your ceremony did the baker have that was not entirely encapsulated in delivering to you the cake that you ordered?
First a wedding cake is always customized depending on the flavor, decorations, design and size. You have to set down with the customer to figure all those things out, so it is a process more than anything. In most cases you have that baker deliver the cake. In rare cases you could even be asked to cut the cake.
Those things right there make a wedding cake much different than anything else a baker can sell. If you want a pound cake, you don't go through any of those things. If you want a cookie you don't go through any of those things. If this was a regular cake, this wouldn't even be an issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo
Unless they do not make custom decorated cakes, they are not refusing a service, they are refusing to perform the same "service", make a specific product that they do provide for a specific group of customers. They are discriminating against specific customers.
So then you agree that someone can come into any bakery that makes custom decorated cakes and force them to put whatever message they want on that cake with no regard for that person's personal beliefs?
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo
You seem to be really confused about the English Language. Making a "gay wedding cake" cannot be the service you are referring to, because the is no such thing as a "gay wedding cake". Cakes do not have sexual orientation. What they are refusing to make is a "wedding cake" for gay people. They make wedding cakes for other people, some of whom may be having just as sinful a union, they want to discriminate based on the customer.
I think you are the one confused.
Have you ever been married?
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo
I don't know how I am ignoring it, I have condemned it without reservation. It is wrong for Muslims to discriminate, just like it is Christians. If you want to have the moral high ground here, stop supporting discrimination. That's all there is to it.
First a wedding cake is always customized depending on the flavor, decorations, design and size. You have to set down with the customer to figure all those things out, so it is a process more than anything. In most cases you have that baker deliver the cake. In rare cases you could even be asked to cut the cake.
Those things right there make a wedding cake much different than anything else a baker can sell. If you want a pound cake, you don't go through any of those things. If you want a cookie you don't go through any of those things. If this was a regular cake, this wouldn't even be an issue.
Aside from cutting the cake, (Which I do think a baker would be within their rights to refuse on religious grounds. That is participation, clearly.) the end result of all this is a cake, a product. Creating a bespoke product is still simply making a product. I can order a birthday cake or cookie with every bit as much participation. At the end of the day you have simply ordered a baked good. Asking the "sandwich artist" at Subway to put more mayo on my sub does not mean they are "participating" in my lunch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justtitans
So then you agree that someone can come into any bakery that makes custom decorated cakes and force them to put whatever message they want on that cake with no regard for that person's personal beliefs?
Boy, you are dense! I just said 2 posts ago that this is entirely not true! If you make penis cakes, you have to make them for anybody. If you make Nazi cakes you have to make them for anybody. If you will make a nice white three layer tiered round cake with white butte cream icing, and fondant flowers and doves for the nice young man and young lady getting married, you should do the same for the two nice young men getting married.
If you wish to make it your policy that you do not do artwork on cakes that depicts homosexuals, then fine, don't do it. But in my view, the right to choose is about the product you will make, not the use to which it will be put or the people to whom you are selling it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justtitans
I think you are the one confused.
Are you implying that you do believe a cake can be "gay"? Becasue that;s what I was talking about...
Quote:
Originally Posted by justtitans
Have you ever been married?
Yep, had a church wedding and everything. Still am, in fact. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
If you wish to make it your policy that you do not do artwork on cakes that depicts homosexuals, then fine, don't do it. But in my view, the right to choose is about the product you will make, not the use to which it will be put or the people to whom you are selling it.
How many here would agree with that statement? Just curious to understand perspectives.
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