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Aside from cutting the cake, (Which I do think a baker would be within their rights to refuse on religious grounds. That is participation, clearly.) the end result of all this is a cake, a product. Creating a bespoke product is still simply making a product. I can order a birthday cake or cookie with every bit as much participation. At the end of the day you have simply ordered a baked good. Asking the "sandwich artist" at Subway to put more mayo on my sub does not mean they are "participating" in my lunch.
No it's not the same and your argument doesn't work here and here's why. Most if not all bakers are not going to make a wedding cake and hand it off to the customer to take to the reception location. They are going to deliver the cake themselves to make sure that their product is not damaged and it's set up properly. So again it's more than just making a cake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo
Boy, you are dense! I just said 2 posts ago that this is entirely not true! If you make penis cakes, you have to make them for anybody. If you make Nazi cakes you have to make them for anybody. If you will make a nice white three layer tiered round cake with white butte cream icing, and fondant flowers and doves for the nice young man and young lady getting married, you should do the same for the two nice young men getting married.
You don't understand my question. I said the MESSAGE, not the design on the cake. If someone wants to put a certain MESSAGE on the cake then that means they have to put it on there do they not? If they can refuse to put a certain message on the cake, then they aren't refusing service altogether, just a type of service. That's a slippery ground there because the same can be said about a wedding cake.
Again comparing a wedding cake to a regular cake is apples and oranges.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo
If you wish to make it your policy that you do not do artwork on cakes that depicts homosexuals, then fine, don't do it. But in my view, the right to choose is about the product you will make, not the use to which it will be put or the people to whom you are selling it.
Again see my first paragraph
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo
Are you implying that you do believe a cake can be "gay"? Becasue that;s what I was talking about...
No. I never suggested that, so I don't even know what you keep using that terminology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo
Yep, had a church wedding and everything. Still am, in fact. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
-NoCapo
Because you have the perspective of how people get a wedding cake. You don't just go to a shop, pick up a cake and you're done with it. I'm sure you understand it's a lot more involved.
This morning I received an order for two kinds of cake to be served at a wedding. Each guest will have their own teeny, tiny wedding cake, and the couple will have a similar small wedding cake. Very cute.
We discussed decoration. I do not write on cake. Ever. I do not put plastic on top of my cakes. Ever. Food coloring on a cake? Never.
I forgot to ask if they were gay. Now what do I do? How do I approach such a delicate question?
This morning I received an order for two kinds of cake to be served at a wedding. Each guest will have their own teeny, tiny wedding cake, and the couple will have a similar small wedding cake. Very cute.
We discussed decoration. I do not write on cake. Ever. I do not put plastic on top of my cakes. Ever. Food coloring on a cake? Never.
I forgot to ask if they were gay. Now what do I do? How do I approach such a delicate question?
So you got an order for the cake but you didn't get who the cake was for?
All religious fundamentalists are EQUAL in their essential beliefs and practices.
All base their faith on "perfect" religious writings and value those writings above people.
All practice bigotry toward one or more groups of people.
All are concern themselves with pointing fingers at "sinners," who are never themselves.
All believe they are a persecuted minority.
All believe THEY are heaven bound and others are going to hell.
All believe it is their duty to turn the prevailing government of their nation into a theocracy.
All are committed to doing this regardless of the opinions of others who are often a majority in their nation.
All are going to the place they believe others are headed.
No it's not the same and your argument doesn't work here and here's why. Most if not all bakers are not going to make a wedding cake and hand it off to the customer to take to the reception location. They are going to deliver the cake themselves to make sure that their product is not damaged and it's set up properly. So again it's more than just making a cake.
Seriously? Delivering the cake to the site, is the same as being in the wedding?!?
Ad the end of the day they bought a cake. Make the people a cake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justtitans
You don't understand my question. I said the MESSAGE, not the design on the cake. If someone wants to put a certain MESSAGE on the cake then that means they have to put it on there do they not? If they can refuse to put a certain message on the cake, then they aren't refusing service altogether, just a type of service. That's a slippery ground there because the same can be said about a wedding cake.
For the third time now, I am ok with refusing to put specific decorations or messages on a cake, provided you are consistent. If you will not make a cake for a heterosexual couple with a cake topper that depicts two men, then by all means don't make it for a gay couple. Likewise, if you will not make a cake with the message "Hitler is cool!" for neo-nazis, then in order to be non-discriminatory you should simply not make any cakes that say "Hitler is cool!"
I think the Colorado baker had it right. If an offensive decoration is requested, you refuse. Maybe you offer to bake the cake, and give them the supplies to decorate it themselves. There is nothing wrong with having a policy of not offering obscene or hateful decorations. There is something wrong with refusing to provide an inoffensive product to offensive customers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justtitans
Again comparing a wedding cake to a regular cake is apples and oranges.
No. A wedding cake is a cake used for a wedding. Any cake becomes a wedding cake if used for a wedding. If I wanted a spiderman sheet cake for my wedding, then it would be a wedding cake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justtitans
Because you have the perspective of how people get a wedding cake. You don't just go to a shop, pick up a cake and you're done with it. I'm sure you understand it's a lot more involved.
Doesn't matter how involved it is! I am paying for a cake!
If I go to a contractor for a new master bedroom on my house, it is none of the contractor's business what I do in that room, who I do it with, how many people I do it with, or what gender, race, or religion they are. Just because he is highly involved in an intense design process about this room does not mean he is participating in the activities in that bedroom. And, lets face it, designing and building a master bedroom is a lot more involved than a cake.
Bottom line, you are simply trying to make it legal for religious people to punish those they don't like. It is small minded, mean, and bigoted. Stop it. It makes you and your faith look bad.
This morning I received an order for two kinds of cake to be served at a wedding. Each guest will have their own teeny, tiny wedding cake, and the couple will have a similar small wedding cake. Very cute.
We discussed decoration. I do not write on cake. Ever. I do not put plastic on top of my cakes. Ever. Food coloring on a cake? Never.
I forgot to ask if they were gay. Now what do I do? How do I approach such a delicate question?
Clearly you need to find out the names of every guest who will eat a tiny wedding cake, and ascertain their sexuality, marital status and divorce history. Then you must refuse to make cakes for those unequally yoked, those divorced for reasons other than infidelity, those who are gay, and those who are fornicating in any way. Otherwise you will be participating in their vile depravity.
So you got an order for the cake but you didn't get who the cake was for?
I have their name and address. Does that count? Will I be able to find the gay from that?
I bake for lots of people, and never meet them. I get their order, and someone picks it up, or I deliver it to the event. Weddings, graduations, communions, birthdays, holidays. local restaurants and cafe's too.
Clearly you need to find out the names of every guest who will eat a tiny wedding cake, and ascertain their sexuality, marital status and divorce history. Then you must refuse to make cakes for those unequally yoked, those divorced for reasons other than infidelity, those who are gay, and those who are fornicating in any way. Otherwise you will be participating in their vile depravity.
Better get busy...
-NoCapo
I am exhausted thinking about it. I will have to find some pearls to clutch later.
I might have to hire someone to take care of that. Here I thought I was just making delicious cake.
Seriously? Delivering the cake to the site, is the same as being in the wedding?!?
Ad the end of the day they bought a cake. Make the people a cake.
Why would someone want to go anywhere near something that is against their beliefs? If their beliefs are they should not be involved with that thing, then it should be respected. Find someone else who will. It's that simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo
For the third time now, I am ok with refusing to put specific decorations or messages on a cake, provided you are consistent. If you will not make a cake for a heterosexual couple with a cake topper that depicts two men, then by all means don't make it for a gay couple. Likewise, if you will not make a cake with the message "Hitler is cool!" for neo-nazis, then in order to be non-discriminatory you should simply not make any cakes that say "Hitler is cool!"
How can you be consistent on something custom???? It's always going to be up for interpretation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo
I think the Colorado baker had it right. If an offensive decoration is requested, you refuse. Maybe you offer to bake the cake, and give them the supplies to decorate it themselves. There is nothing wrong with having a policy of not offering obscene or hateful decorations. There is something wrong with refusing to provide an inoffensive product to offensive customers.
No. A wedding cake is a cake used for a wedding. Any cake becomes a wedding cake if used for a wedding. If I wanted a spiderman sheet cake for my wedding, then it would be a wedding cake.
A wedding cake is not make the same as a sheet cake. Then it's just a cake. It's called a wedding cake therefore it's distinctively different than other cakes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo
Doesn't matter how involved it is! I am paying for a cake!
If I go to a contractor for a new master bedroom on my house, it is none of the contractor's business what I do in that room, who I do it with, how many people I do it with, or what gender, race, or religion they are. Just because he is highly involved in an intense design process about this room does not mean he is participating in the activities in that bedroom. And, lets face it, designing and building a master bedroom is a lot more involved than a cake.
Bottom line, you are simply trying to make it legal for religious people to punish those they don't like. It is small minded, mean, and bigoted. Stop it. It makes you and your faith look bad.
-NoCapo
Not the same at all. A wedding is sacred a bedroom is not.
I'm not trying to make anything. I just believe there should be more compromise so that people beliefs are not being violated. No one is stopping these individuals from having rights. It's ridiculous to suggest that.
Those Muslim shops were fundies for upholding their religious beliefs.
Do you think they should be shut down because they discriminate?
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