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Old 07-08-2008, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Oxford, OH
1,461 posts, read 3,640,349 times
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Thanks ILNC I think there is a danger is adding anything to what Christ did on the cross. And those other things may be good/great things but they do not save us. I do believe strongly that people should be baptized and take communion, do good works, join a church. Then of course we get down to playing cards, dancing, cutting your hair.....
Look at the people who disagree with "how" you get baptized. There are groups that think if you get sprinkled rather than going under that is just doesn't count. God looks on your heart attitude. I think you could take communion with Kool-aid and Cheerios if your heart attitude was right.
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Old 07-08-2008, 11:40 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,418,268 times
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Driftwood,
Scripture says baptism saves us (1 Peter 3:21), washes away our sins (Acts 22:16), gives us forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38), clothes us in Christ (Galatians 3:27), makes us holy (Ephesians 5:26), and gives us a spiritual regeneration and rebirth (Titus 3:5). The reason it saves is because of the ressurection. (1 Peter 3:21)


Jesus commands us to make disciples of all nations. And tells us how, first He commands us by baptising. Matthew 28:19 see,: Acts 8:16; Acts 19:5; Romans 6:3; 1 Corinthians 1:13

Would Jesus contradict himself? Matthew 28 was after the death on the cross. It is not I who is making up words, nor its not IMO. These words of Jesus are part of Jesus' Great Commision to you. I don't think that they were said to be taken as optional.
I just do not see how this is "adding" when Jesus himself says it. I know there is a lot of emphises of word order i.e. "believe" then "baptise", but Matthew 28:19-20 has "baptizing" then "teaching" (NIV)

IMO, it isn't the word order that is the issue. But its really comes down to this.... is faith a gift from man or a gift from God?
In your opinion, do we have controll over when we are born? (physically or spiritually) John 3:6

Last edited by twin.spin; 07-08-2008 at 11:57 AM..
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Old 07-08-2008, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Oxford, OH
1,461 posts, read 3,640,349 times
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What do you do with the person who make a death bed confession for Christ or the person in war who cries out when shot or the person in an accident who accepts Christ and dies. Are they not saved????
I had a friend whose dad believed and trusted Christ before a heart operation and died on the table...is he not saved???
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Old 07-08-2008, 12:28 PM
 
Location: NW Arkansas
3,978 posts, read 8,517,556 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Driftwood,
Scripture says baptism saves us (1 Peter 3:21), washes away our sins (Acts 22:16), gives us forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38), clothes us in Christ (Galatians 3:27), makes us holy (Ephesians 5:26), and gives us a spiritual regeneration and rebirth (Titus 3:5). The reason it saves is because of the ressurection. (1 Peter 3:21)


Jesus commands us to make disciples of all nations. And tells us how, first He commands us by baptising. Matthew 28:19 see,: Acts 8:16; Acts 19:5; Romans 6:3; 1 Corinthians 1:13

Would Jesus contradict himself? Matthew 28 was after the death on the cross. It is not I who is making up words, nor its not IMO. These words of Jesus are part of Jesus' Great Commision to you. I don't think that they were said to be taken as optional.
I just do not see how this is "adding" when Jesus himself says it. I know there is a lot of emphises of word order i.e. "believe" then "baptise", but Matthew 28:19-20 has "baptizing" then "teaching" (NIV)

IMO, it isn't the word order that is the issue. But its really comes down to this.... is faith a gift from man or a gift from God?
In your opinion, do we have controll over when we are born? (physically or spiritually) John 3:6

This is so true, and anyone who rejects it will answer to God and Christ, just as Adam and Eve did when they believed what the serpent said to them.

" Anyone who goes on and abides not in the doctrine of Christ has not the Father or the Son."

What is there not to understand about 'abiding in the doctrine'? What is there to not understand about obeying the gospel? What is there to misunderstand about " If you love Me, keep My commandments" ?
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Old 07-08-2008, 01:35 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,418,268 times
Reputation: 1319
Quote:
Originally Posted by driftwoodpoint View Post
What do you do with the person who make a death bed confession for Christ or the person in war who cries out when shot or the person in an accident who accepts Christ and dies. Are they not saved????
I had a friend whose dad believed and trusted Christ before a heart operation and died on the table...is he not saved???
Yes. But there is a difference between the timing of the hearer and the command to the sower, the fishers of men.

Baptism is necessary, but not absolutely necessary. Mark 16:16
God provides for the exception. The thief on the cross was one example of that.

Is faith a gift from God or from man? Do we controll when we are born? Do we controll when we first hear the message? What is greater, logic or a child-like faith in God's Word?

You do realize when Jesus spoke about "child-like" faith to the disciples, Jesus was picking "them up into his arms". Being Jesus was an average guy, (and I never personally experienced having twins) at what age do you stop picking them up? I would guess we are talking some very small young'ins.... certiantly not at age 12 or 10, possibly 5 years. Since women were bringing their children, it could even be younger that 5.

This is one of my IMO's: Why do I suspect that "them" is more than one child in Mark 10:16? Because of Mark 9:36, Mark writes this way.. "He took a little child and had him stand among them. Taking him in his arms, he said to them,"
Notice the differences.
A singular (him) in 9:36, a plural (them) in 10:16.
Mentioning of them standing 9:36, but we don't 10:16.

It maybe just a case of over analizing, but then maybe not.

Last edited by twin.spin; 07-08-2008 at 02:17 PM..
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Old 07-08-2008, 02:31 PM
 
348 posts, read 554,836 times
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Default Noah

Quote:
Originally Posted by driftwoodpoint View Post
What do you do with the person who make a death bed confession for Christ or the person in war who cries out when shot or the person in an accident who accepts Christ and dies. Are they not saved????
I had a friend whose dad believed and trusted Christ before a heart operation and died on the table...is he not saved???

The thing that gets me with "new agers" is that will twist and squirm and try to get out of the truth, but when someone says something pertaining to God, you exclaim, "do not judge". In other words you don't preach a gospel of obedience, but one of love, and non confrontation. You dont even know the meaning of love. For if you truly loved, and were from God, you would preach the whole council of God. Not just a "feel good" watered down version from some denominational viewpoint. The lucky thing for you is you are not the one judging your friend who died on the operating table. God is. All you have to do is "warn others". Live the life, and bear the cross. With that, you "might" want to be baptized for the remission of sins. AT THAT POINT , your sinful self dies. But you would of course have to honor Christ and believe in Him, before hand. Baptism is a spiritual act, and not a physical ritual as you might preach. Gods' kingdom is Spirit. The Old has been done away with. Why would after the Old Covenant of Physical washings and sacrifices were done away with, would we have another ritual such as the baptism which you preach.

"All the fountains of the great deep burst open and the floodgates of the sky were opened" (Gen. 7:11) after Noah and his family of seven had entered the ark. It rained for 40 days and 40 nights, the waters rose above the mountains, "and the ark floated on the surface of the water" (Gen. 7:18). "All flesh that moved on the earth perished" (Gen. 7:21), "and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark" (Gen. 7:23).


I Peter 3:20, 21: "...the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

OK. Lets look at the comparisons of scripture above. We can see that Noah was saved when he was in the ark. He was brought safely through the water. All other flesh perished. Only Noah and his family were saved. ALL OTHERS PERISHED.

This is so simple, I don't even know how to explain it.

Water here is symbolic in flood to show us how Noah was saved. Were the other flesh saved. No.
1 Peter 20 tells us that a "few were brought safely through the water", meaning what. They did not die.

In comparison, and contrast, we have "baptism now saves you". Read those words, carefully. What does it mean?

"baptism now saves you"

Again, it does not get simpler. If someone has a question fair enough. But if you have some rebuke, then please supply something to support it, preferably from scripture, because: But Jesus answered him, saying, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.' "Luke 4:4

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

I posted the above scripture before for a reason. We can see that "by the spirit" which is the word of God, we can test others to see if their walk is a false walk, or if it might be in faith and love.

2 John 1:6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.
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Old 07-08-2008, 04:10 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,418,268 times
Reputation: 1319
Default correction --

Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Yes. But there is a difference between the timing of the hearer and the command to the sower, the fishers of men.

Baptism is necessary, but not absolutely necessary. Mark 16:16
God provides for the exception. The thief on the cross was one example of that.

Is faith a gift from God or from man? Do we controll when we are born? Do we controll when we first hear the message? What is greater, logic or a child-like faith in God's Word?

You do realize when Jesus spoke about "child-like" faith to the disciples, Jesus was picking "them up into his arms". Being Jesus was an average guy, (and I never personally experienced having twins) at what age do you stop picking them up? I would guess we are talking some very small young'ins.... certiantly not at age 12 or 10, possibly 5 years. Since women were bringing their children, it could even be younger that 5.

This is one of my IMO's: Why do I suspect that "them" is more than one child in Mark 10:16? Because of Mark 9:36, Mark writes this way.. "He took a little child and had him stand among them. Taking him in his arms, he said to them,"
Notice the differences.
A singular (him) in 9:36, a plural (them) in 10:16.
Mentioning of him standing 9:36, but we don't 10:16.

It maybe just a case of over analizing, but then maybe not.

made the wrong reference of "them", should have been him
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Old 07-11-2008, 02:52 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
100 posts, read 279,841 times
Reputation: 51
"What is the meaning/purpose behind baptism? Also, is this a "personal" view or one that is practiced in your church? Also, can a person be baptised multiple times?"

IMO~
Baptism is the death of your old sinful nature and the birth of your new holy nature. I was baptized 12 years ago in the American River that flowed right behind the church I was saved in. I don't recall an audience (if there was one it wasn't very large), it for me was a personal thing. I don't agree with doing it more than once, You can only die in flesh once, I would think it would be the same for your old nature. Blessings, Mandy
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Old 06-13-2009, 02:09 AM
 
8 posts, read 10,422 times
Reputation: 11
The Bile tells us what baptism is and what it does:
Romans 6:3-6
Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
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Old 06-13-2009, 02:15 AM
 
8 posts, read 10,422 times
Reputation: 11
The thief on the cross is NOT an example of an exception to baptism:
(!) He was under the old testament and baptism in Christ's name for the remission of sins was not yet given as a commandment-Mk 16:15-16 and Mt 28:19-20; Christ forgave sins at will while alive on the earth, but after he went to heaven his will while he is alive in heaven forgives sins!
(2) He could not obey the command of baptism is he wanted to-he was nailed onto a cross!
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