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Yes But My Point REMAINS The FACT - the Souls are not Communicating and Hearing and Listening - for other LIVING Souls. Their Prayers and Cries of their Souls are still ongoing for their Own Fate.
Your absolute arrogance and hubris expressed in your certainty about something which absolutely NONE of us could possibly know is off-putting. You have no more basis upon which to make such assertions than anyone else! Get a clue.
brother "P.Q.", that may be YOUR interpretation of scripture and it may really work for you (may God truly bless you, then) but unless you can claim Divine inspiration AND infallibility---and thus become your very own pope, LOL-- sad to say your take on scripture remains ONLY yours and in reality ultimately no more binding on my conscience or belief than anybody else's . we could go round and round on this with the central theme (for me at least) being that Catholic's don't think that those Christians no longer with us in the flesh either are unaware of or somehow ignore those of us who are in the flesh and thus can not or will not join their prayers with us---and you with an obviously different belief but sadly don't think either of us will be convinced of the others "truth"--but hopefully of our mutual sincerity at least). still, may God help us BOTH to know and follow the truth and follow it with sincerity AND charity. blessed are those who hear (and yes, read, too) the word of the Lord and keep it!!!
Oh, BTW, you still haven't explained just how the lack of all those bibles that you believe were maliciously kept away from Christians back then really could have seriously harmed them spiritually---since most of them WERE illiterate and couldn't read it anyway even if you had placed it firmly in every hand in Christendom (but STILL they had the opportunity to hear the word of the Lord read and preached to them and then the opportunity and mandate to put those words and all they conveyed into practice worshiping God in spirit and truth by loving Him and their neighbor).
in the peace of Christ,..
Last edited by georgeinbandonoregon; 08-28-2015 at 11:34 PM..
Can you find me a place in the bible where "Christian" (let alone Catholic) is mentioned? think that the general consensus of religious scholars is that there was NO "accepted"/"complete" bible as we know it in circulation in apostolic or subapostolic times (say until around 300 a.d. or so) just the "old" testament and various writings of the apostles (gospels and epistles) some here and some there but rarely if ever all together PLUS various other writings (including the "gospel of judas" apparently!) accepted by some and not others----until the Church (under the guidance of the Holy Spirit) made ultimate decision on what was really "inspired" for general edification of the faithful and what was not quite so much or in fact completely bogus and heretical.
whether scripture specifically NAMES something is not IMHO necessarily indicative in many cases of anything---again, think the bible itself is not specifically called as such in scripture. speaking of "dead" people (saints or otherwise") communicating what about Moses and Elijah appearing at the "transfiguration" (Matt. 17: 1-13) and SPEAKING to Jesus? finally, if all those who in faith and love cling to Christ and are sanctified in Him as believers in Hi are in point of fact "saints" (and so they are essentially regarded as in scripture when Paul writes to the various "saints" who are in various churches he writes his letters to---as in Ephesians 1:1) where in scripture is it said that they CEASE to be so when they leave this life to be with Him (as St. Paul says in 2 Cor. 5:8, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord")?
in the peace of Christ who has called us all to be saints.
Last edited by georgeinbandonoregon; 08-29-2015 at 08:15 PM..
of course they do---the appearance of Moses and Elijah in the transfiguration talking to Jesus shows that Jesus is the fulfillment of the law (Moses) and the prophets (Elijah)---in fact, many thought Jesus might indeed be one of the prophets returned to vindicate Isreal.---"who do they say I am..." (Matt 16:15)
how does one REALLY differentiate the Catholic Faith from the rest of Christianity---as BOTH regard Jesus as the incarnate Son of God who has come into the world to suffer and die for our sins and by faith in Him (which means more than a simple declaration of belief but a turning away from sin to enter into new life in Christ through water and the Holy Spirit) shown by love of God and neighbor. for someone to apparently either ignore or at least greatly discount this great underlying bond of unity between us while castigating the supposed faults, misdeeds, and sins of Catholicism (and Orthodoxy for that matter) i.e. the "mote" in our eyes while not even mentioning at least the potential of "beams" in their own is rather troublesome---perhaps in the end we should ALL remember Christ's response to the disciples complaints that one "not of your company" were casting out demons in His name (as the church and all believers must always try to do)---"do NOT hinder him for he who is not against you is FOR you!!!" (Luke 9:49)---ultimately we are on the same side---against the world, the flesh, and the devil---whether you think so or not!!!!
Last edited by georgeinbandonoregon; 08-29-2015 at 09:34 PM..
PQ- You are trying to argue against Catholicism by using scripture. The Bible is only 1/3 of it. Sacred Tradition, which is what the writers of scripture used since none of them ever saw Jesus and The Magisterium, or the leadership of the church. As we learn more things change, some things are better understood, or in some cases disregarded. You can look up Augustine quotes about Creation, for an example. The Church and its views on Evolution is another example of that. Catholics also realize that everything isn't in one book. There is much more and more is always being found through archeology, records, and SCIENCE!
You cannot take Revelations literally and use that as part of your argument. Catholics don't take Revelations or many parts, maybe most of scripture, literally.
So to sum up. If you are arguing against Catholicism you can't just quote Scripture. It doesn't work that way.
A question about those saying the Bible never mentions anyone by name as being in Heaven. What is to be made of those in Genesis (I think Lamech and two or three others are mentioned) who are said to walk with God?
All believers are saints in the eyes of the Lord . For man to judge sainthood is simply another in a series of
nonesense by religion (well intended as it may be). Beatification is a manufacture political process that even
seeks miracles from wacko old ladiesin Europe who gives a testamonial of a son healed by a Cardinals prayers.
Then a concave of sinners (Cardinals) voting on sainthood....reallly? Its insanity!! Stop it! its blasphemy!!!
since all believers are indeed regarded as saints in God's eyes then should be no especial problem with the general concept of having the opportunity (NOT the requirement) to ask for them to join with us in prayers to God---whether they are with us in the flesh right here and now OR with God (the concept of the "communion of saints" can work both ways). the process of beatification and canonization is generally a long and involved process with "proof" being required so it's neither a "kangaroo court" or a "beauty contest" instead being intentionally designed to weed out the unworthy or uncertain candidates. remember NOBODY is required to ask ANY of them for any help at anytime (they can't do anything of their own power---anymore than the apostles' various miracles recorded in Acts or the 72 disciples Jesus sent out that even demons submitted to them IN HIS NAME in Luke 10:17 could: all being in and through the power of God for His glory and the edification of His faithful) anymore than you or I HAVE to ask another Christian at any time or place to pray with and for you and I to God for help in our righteous needs. of course, 'saints" (in the Catholic and Orthodox usage of specially remembered Christians publically commended to the faithful for their respect and veneration---NOT worship) are also useful as examples of special friends of God whose lives of heroic virtue (think St. Francis of Assisi or maybe Mother Theresa)---often including various suffering and martyrdom for their Christian faith (think St. Steven the first martyr)---for our instruction and assistance in living a Christian life. hardly blasphemy I would suggest.
now, in fact if you may have a problem about or a question with the Church's authority to "nominate" or "designate" anybody (including "saints) or anything (doctrine, belief, or practice) that the faithful are "urged" let alone "required" to accept, believe, do that's a somewhat different consideration/discussion. Catholics and Orthodox believe (right, wrong, or indifferent) that this is part of the "power of the keys" committed by Jesus to the disciples and the Church/the "Body of Christ" they were to build---for more detail on that I would suggest you check out the Wikipedia article "the power of the keys" which outlines Catholic and Orthodox thinking and biblical citations they at least believe support that belief.
God bless you.
Last edited by georgeinbandonoregon; 08-31-2015 at 10:01 PM..
Reason: more info.
funny, the disciples certainly thought they were seeing something "real" at the transfiguration when Moses and Elijah appeared to testify to the glory of Jesus---real enough that they wanted to put up tents for Jesus, Moses, and Elijah and Jesus did NOTHING to set them right (according to your theory) about it being only a vision---only telling them to tell no one else about what happened until He was ascended to His glory. one might also suppose then that the Holy Ghost descending upon Jesus in the form of a dove at His baptism in the Jordan (Luke 3:22, John 1:23, etc.) was also somehow "just' a vision and therefore it's significance (Jesus is really empowered of and approved by God in His mission of salvation) somehow to be discounted? what does this kind of interpretation of scripture have to say about the "burning bush" that Moses saw or the "appearance" of Jesus to the disciples at Emmaus or the descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost----all some kind of visions that are really NOT what they appear to be OR simply a human way of trying to describe a SUPERNATURAL reality where the disciples then (and for that matter) our limited experience of transitory and mundane "reality" and of what "should be" is suddenly confronted by God's revelation of what really and eternally IS?
FWIW, to a Muslim, Jesus is ONLY a prophet (Allah has no son) who BTW most Muslims believe did not really die on a cross---whose teachings are subordinate to Mohammed the final "seal" of the prophets)----to Catholics (and Orthodox) Jesus IS the ETERNAL Son of God come into the world to live, suffer, and die (and rise from the dead and return to His Father) for our salvation and we can be "saved only by the power of the one named Jesus" (Acts 4:12). that's "our" take on the matter---"what think YOU of Christ"?
Last edited by georgeinbandonoregon; 09-01-2015 at 07:28 AM..
sorry, not buying your take on the transfiguration. for a "non-denominational" protestant interpretation take a look at Matt. 17:3 at the "biblehub" website and go down to the "pulpit commentary" and for that matter the other commentaries there as well and the "experts" there seem to think that Moses and Elijah were very real (apparently just like those foolish Catholics).
FYI, the "Rheims/Douai" Catholic translation of the bible in English actually predates (1582) the "King James" bible (1611) and some have said that the compilers of the K.J.V. probably looked at it (and many other older and contemporary translations including Coverdale's and the "bishop's bible") while working on their own. of course, there were vernacular translations of the bible approved by the Church well before "2000 years" ran out in many other languages as well.
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