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While your friends, family and colleagues (who did not repent before death) are suffering the torments of hell forever you will be:
A. Not worrying about it
B. Happy it is not you
C. Happy that God's justice is being carried out
D. At God's feet, forever begging that He will give them another chance to make the right choice
E. None of the above, because God's judgments are always corrective and everyone will ultimately kneel and confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of God (yes, even that bratty cousin of yours)
How could one possibly enjoy eternity if their children,parents,friends are in literal flames burning and suffering? Something I could never figure out. Maybe because that isn`t what is taught in the bible but that is what the church wants you to believe. Would your own earthly father subject you to such pain forever or is a father`s punishment corrective in nature? Why do we expect less from our heavemly Father than we do from our earthly father?
Quote:
Final Question
Quote:
If you believe in free will and eternal torment, why are you sitting here discussing doctrine online instead of out trying to prevent this horrible future for those dying all around you (the hospitals would be a good start).
A. I'm too busy
B. I don't love people that much
C. I say I believe it, but in my heart of hearts I know it's not really true, so I don't act on it.
blessings,
Byron
PS - Calvinists need not reply to the Final Question
Excellent question. Well,believers in eternal torment..what say you?
All people may have an inner sense of what God requires, (i.e. acknowledgement, etc.), but this verse does not address the idea that one must know/acknowledge/receive Jesus. I believe this verse is simply saying that people have no excuse not to acknowledge their Creator. This is entirely different than saying the "Sinner's Prayer", i.e. asking Jesus to come into one's heart. How can these people ask someone they've never heard of, to come into their heart? How can these people reject someone they've not heard of? You have to know of something before you can reject it. Could we have rejected our prospective spouses before we knew them? Yet we don't seem to have a problem with saying that the little jungle guy is rejecting Jesus, which means he's toast! Not a great scenario! Or, if we are feeling extra nice, we come up with the all-covering excuse that we just don't know what God will do with the little dude, but we can be certain it will be just. How generous of us; how easy to be so complacent. Of course, this attitude still translates that the little guy is probably a spiritual goner, anyway; after all, he didn't accept Jesus before he died, and that's the onlytime to get saved, according to traditional teaching. Doesn't leave much wiggle room, does it?
Of course, I suppose we can figure that he is in better shape than someone who has heard the Gospel, and actively rejected it. Perhaps his spot in hell will be slightly cooler; maybe God will even let him have a waterbottle fan. At the very least he has a "chance" for that justice. But, the teen, or grown man, who was abused by his clergy as a little boy, won't have as much hope, if he decides he's not impressed with Jesus, thanks to how He was presented. A Cheyenne from Sand Creek, CO, back in the 1860's, won't have any excuse, even though the best "sermon" he got about Jesus was from a Methodist preacher named Chivington, who rode with the Colorado Volunteers, and slaughtered a band of mostly old men, women, and children. I guess a mother who holds her dying child in her arms will still be faulted for her rejection of Jesus, because she can't understand why God won't heal her child. I suppose a man who just lost his wife to cancer, and is left with little children to raise is quite the sinner for rejecting Jesus. God will not excuse the parents who reject him, because they are angry and struggling with the fact that their child was brutally murdered. God will turn his face from all of the victims of the Holocaust, because these "foolish" people were having a hard time seeing Jesus in the camps. How horribly arrogant of Christians to make such statements about other people's eternal fate! So much for hope, so much for the unconditional love of God, so much for Good News
How could one possibly enjoy eternity if their children,parents,friends are in literal flames burning and suffering? Something I could never figure out. Maybe because that isn`t what is taught in the bible but that is what the church wants you to believe. Would your own earthly father subject you to such pain forever or is a father`s punishment corrective in nature? Why do we expect less from our heavemly Father than we do from our earthly father?
Amen. I was watching another documentary on the well known Pentecostal preacher, Carlton Pearson and how he lost most of the congregation he was ministering to and although still respected, rejected by most in the denomination that he belonged to. He says that although he preached eternal hell for years, something did not sit right with his spirit when he thought about the millions of people who have never heard the name of Jesus being sent to eternal punishment. He had been in torment and was unable to reconcile this with the nature of the love of God and His mercy. He says that God revealed the answer to him, and when he began to share with the congregation that Jesus was the Savior of all, the majority left him, and he said that he realized then what it meant to have found his soul. God bless.
How could one possibly enjoy eternity if their children,parents,friends are in literal flames burning and suffering?
What I love to ask believers in eternal torment: If (hypothetically of course) God would give you the opportunity to trade places with someone you loved who died unsaved, would you do it? In other words - would you give them your spot in eternal bliss and take their place in eternal torment?
Of course we all know what agape love would do - and yet I've never gotten a "Yes" yet. What do I get?
"Well... it's not my fault - I tried to tell them"
"That's God's decision, not mine"
"It would be wrong for me to force them to live in God's bliss if they don't want to (!!!)
Why no Yes's? Because the thought is too horrifying. It's much easier to consign others there.
blessings,
- Byron
What I love to ask believers in eternal torment: If (hypothetically of course) God would give you the opportunity to trade places with someone you loved who died unsaved, would you do it? In other words - would you give them your spot in eternal bliss and take their place in eternal torment?
Of course we all know what agape love would do - and yet I've never gotten a "Yes" yet. What do I get?
"Well... it's not my fault - I tried to tell them"
"That's God's decision, not mine"
"It would be wrong for me to force them to live in God's bliss if they don't want to (!!!)
Why no Yes's? Because the thought is too horrifying. It's much easier to consign others there.
blessings,
- Byron
Amen Byron. Good post. Believers in eternal torment will say those people chose to be there. They want to be there,they don`t want to be with God. God would never send someone there who didn`t want to be there. But yet,they also love to quote the parable about the rich man and Lazarus. Well,that rich man certainly didn`t want to be there. He wanted to warn his brothers about that awful place. My prayer is that those who read these posts( but possibly don`t respond) and just couldn`t understand how God would allow most of his creation to go to eternal torment,will see that not all christians believe in the church`s eternal torment.
My prayer is that those who read these posts( but possibly don`t respond) and just couldn`t understand how God would allow most of his creation to go to eternal torment,will see that not all christians believe in the church`s eternal torment.
Suffering that never ever stops throughout all eternity is absolute insanity and that message does not come from God. The wages of sin is death - always has been and always will be.
Romans 5:18 "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men".
"We must all die, and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again. But God does not take away life; instead He deviseth ways for the banished to be restored."
* Literally: for the banished to not be banished
To Devise=
To conceive of the idea for something and figure out how it will work.
To form in the mind by new combinations or applications of ideas and principles.
To invent a plan, a system, object, etc. usually cleverly or imaginatively.
To invent or make. (A plan, device, or solution of a problem), especially by a fresh application of known information; arrange, contrive.
To contrive, plan, or elaborate; invent from existing principles or ideas: to devise a method.
To form a plan.
To form, plan, or arrange in the mind.
To plan a scheme for; to purpose, to attain.
To imagine; to form in the mind by new combinations of ideas or designs.
To form a scheme....To lay a plan.
To formulate by thought.
To contrive; to excogitate; to invent; to plan.
To arrange by systematic planning and united effort.
To strike out by thought.
Devise= Chashab=
(A Primitive Hebrew Root Word)
To think. To plan. To calculate, invent, make a judgement.
Suffering that never ever stops throughout all eternity is absolute insanity and that message does not come from God. The wages of sin is death - always has been and always will be.
Romans 5:18 "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men".
This is the real good news.
blessings,
Byron
Quote:
The drama of creation begins with a scene in which the first Adam takes a step that Ieads all his posterity into ruin and death. It closes with a vision in which the last Adam presents to the Father, as a fruit of His Cross and Throne, a universe of beings delivered from sin and death, and worshipping in adoring wonder at His feet. This is the "purpose of the ages." (Eph. 3:11). This is the goal of creation. Then will Christ see of the travail of His soul and be SATISFIED. -A. Saxby-
"For as by one man's disobedience the mass of mankind polus were made sinners, SO by the obedience of One shall the mass of mankind be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound/pleonazo."
BUT
But where sin pleonazo (ed), grace did much more abound/huperperisseuo"
Jesus Christ the predestined Lord of the Universe meets pleonazo with huperperisseuo!
Sin abounds: His grace abounds beyond measure!
Sin abounds: His grace abounds exceedingly!
Sin abounds: His grace overflows the banks!
The Scope Of Adam one: Pleonazo
Pleonazo=
To superabound/ to exist in abundance.
To increase/ be augmented/ to make increase.
The Reconciliation Of Jesus Christ: Combination Of Huper+Perisseuo
Huper=
In behalf of/ For the sake of.
Over/ beyond/ more than.
More/ Beyond/ Over.
Perisseuo
To exceed a fixed number of measure.
To be left over and above a certain number or measure.
To be over/ to remain.
To exist or be at hand in abundance.
To be great (abundant)
A thing which comes in abundance, or overflows unto one.
Something falls to the lot of one in large measure.
To redound unto, turn out abundantly for, a thing.
To abound, overflow.
To be abundantly furnished with, to have in abundance.
Abound, to be in affluence.
To be pre-eminent, to excel.
To excel more than. To exceed.
To make to abound.
To furnish one richly so that he has abundance.
To make abundant or excellent.
Huper & Perisseuo= Huperperisseuo=
Huperperisseuo=
To abound beyond measure/ abound exceedingly.
To overflow/ to enjoy abundantly.
Perisseuo Rooted In Perissos
Perissos=
Exceeding some number or measure or rank or need.
Over and above, more than is necessary, super-added.
Exceeding abundantly, supremely.
Something further/ more/ much more than all/ more plainly.
Superior, extraordinary, surpassing, uncommon.
]Pre-eminence, superiority, advantage, more eminent, more remarkable, more excellent.
"Assuredly the Bible is not the story of sin, deepening into eternal ruin, of God's Son, worsted in His utmost effort; it is from the opening to the close the story of grace stronger than sin--of life victorious over every form of death--of God triumphing over evil." -Thomas Allin-
BREAKING "GOOD NEWS": Apostle Paul reports that impact of death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord, Jesus Christ, 2,000 years ago shown to be more, not less, powerful than the disobedience of man He created 4,000 years prior (Romans 5:19)! Christians "horrified" and "offended" by this "heresy!" Furiously argue redemption of all mankind is an "insult to the cross of Christ"...
BREAKING "GOOD NEWS": Apostle Paul reports that impact of death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord, Jesus Christ, 2,000 years ago shown to be more, not less, powerful than the disobedience of man He created 4,000 years prior (Romans 5:19)! Christians "horrified" and "offended" by this "heresy!" Furiously argue redemption of all mankind is an "insult to the cross of Christ"...
Wait wait folks....
this just in.....
Apparently Paul did not stop writing after Chapter 5, verse 19.....
See chapters 9 and 10.
Christians everywhere urged by Christ to preach the gospel by Jesus (Matt 18)...apparently some folks see no need for this.....
Updates in eternity.
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Or, if we are feeling extra nice, we come up with the all-covering excuse that we just don't know what God will do with the little dude, but we can be certain it will be just. How generous of us;
how easy to be so complacent. Of course, this attitude still translates that the little guy is probably a spiritual goner, anyway; after all, he didn't accept Jesus before he died, and that's the only time to get saved, according to traditional teaching. Doesn't leave much wiggle room, does it? 
