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This is just a simple straw man argument with no substance.
I am open minded and I do not lump all "Christians" into one group...actually there are several groups depending on which level of fundamentalism they choose to follow.
If you make fundamental claims does it really matter if you take the bible literally or see it as a parable?
I am simply listening to the claims made by the individual themselves vs. what the particular religion promotes.
You may think the bible is only a parable but yet you make claims that are 100% fundamental.
show me where I have made such a claim, when you cannot I will accept your apology.
Got any science to back that claim up? or are you just basing that claim on faith
The real question is...do you have any sciece to back up your claims for this Christian god, or are you just basing that claim on faith.
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Originally Posted by pneuma
You believe because you study science you are more enlightened then those who don't, thus setting yourself in an exclussive group, which YOU called a cult, NOT me. whats the matter don't like it when the table is turn back on you.
No...just more educated and knowledgeable about how the world we live in works.
Cults induce fear. Science induces clarity.
Cults expect you to believe without questioning. Science does not ask you to believe anything. Science asks a lot of questions.
Cults manipulates. Science educates.
Cults tout Authoritarian Leadership. Science relies on independent peer reviews.
Cults tout Exclusivism....Cults often believe that they alone have the truth.
Science is open to anyone and science is willing to change its views based on evidence and inquiry
Cults practice Isolationism. Science does not care who you associate with.
Cults promote Opposition to Independent Thinking. Science is nothing but independent thinking. The point of science and the reason it works is because you don’t try and prove something that you like or want to believe in to be true. In fact Science also tries to prove ideas to be false…and that is what is really important.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
actually that is the exact way I approach the bible
LOL! You just proved once again that you don't understand the scientific methods.
You can't make the claim that you follow Jesus because he is the only one who knows...and then turn around and claim that you use the Scientific Method to approach the bible.
Science does not make claims about knowing something until it has gone through a rigorous process involving the Scientific Method and peer review.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
If someone did not interpret science different then others, science would have stagnated a long time ago.
See here again is the issue with non-scientists. This is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard. Science does not become a theory or law until it undergoes a rigorous process that involves independent reproducibility and peer reviews. Now tell me based on this how science would have become stagnated?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
I asked you to show me some of your science, you refuse to do so,
This makes no sense. Show you some of my science? Science is independent and all on it's own. It's not my science.
What science of mine have you asked me to show you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
thus showing you cannot prove your science to be anything other then faith based. Kind of like your faith in there being no God, can't prove it by science thus showing your science is faith based.
Thanks for demonstrating once again why non-scientists are lost and confused with respect to how science conducts itself.
You believe what you believe in your religious ideas based on nothing but faith.
The real question is...do you have any sciece to back up your claims for this
Christian god, or are you just basing that claim on faith.
Nice try but everyone can see you are avoiding the conclusion that your belief that there is no God is based on your faith that there is no God.You don't have any science to back your claim up, thus it is faith based. I rest my case your science is faith based.
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No...just more educated and knowledgeable about how the world we live in
works.
That has obviously not been seen here.
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Cults induce fear. Science induces clarity.
Which shows I do not belong to a cult, for love casts out all fear.
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Cults expect you to believe without questioning. Science does not ask you to
believe anything. Science asks a lot of questions.
It is simply stupid not to question, no one grows without doing so. See we agree on something.
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Cults manipulates. Science educates.
science also manipulates, or are you saying a christian scientist would not manipulate the findings to try and make it match up with the bible or one who does not believe in God would not manipulate the findings so that it did not match up with the bible.
Quote:
Cults tout Authoritarian Leadership. Science relies on independent peer
reviews.
Cults tout Exclusivism....Cults often believe that they alone have the
truth.
True, but are you not saying that science alone is the truth
Quote:
Science is open to anyone and science is willing to change its views based on
evidence and inquiry
So are individuals, many here who you have spoken to do exaclty that.
Quote:
Cults practice Isolationism. Science does not care who you associate
with.
Neither do many of us, my best friend of 40 years is an athiest. He does not care that I believe in God and I do not care that he does not.
Quote:
Cults promote Opposition to Independent Thinking. Science is nothing but
independent thinking. The point of science and the reason it works is because
you don’t try and prove something that you like or want to believe in to be
true. In fact Science also tries to prove ideas to be false…and that is what is
really important.
Well I would say some sceintist try to prove ideas false, but your living in a bubble if you think that goes for all of them.
Quote:
LOL! You just proved once again that you don't understand the scientific
methods.
You can't make the claim that you follow Jesus because he is the only one who
knows...and then turn around and claim that you use the Scientific Method to
approach the bible.
I said Jesus was the only one who really knows God, if you are going to quote me quote it all.
Quote:
Science does not make claims about knowing something until it has gone through a
rigorous process involving the Scientific Method and peer review.
They don't? is it not a scientific claim that time travel is a possibility? and did you not make the claim that there is no God? What scientific method and peer review did you use to make such a claim?
Quote:
See here again is the issue with non-scientists. This is the most ignorant thing
I have ever heard. Science does not become a theory or law until it undergoes a
rigorous process that involves independent reproducibility and peer reviews. Now
tell me based on this how science would have become stagnated?
You misunderstood what I said. I said If someone did not interpret science different then others, science would have stagnated a long time ago. In other words science changes based on more evidence it recieves, if it did not it would have become stagnant a long time ago.
Quote:
This makes no sense. Show you some of my science? Science is independent and
all on it's own. It's not my science.
What science of mine have you asked me to show you?
Thanks for demonstrating once again why non-scientists are lost and confused
with respect to how science conducts itself.
You believe what you believe in your religious ideas based on nothing but
faith
Show me the science that proves there is no God, which you emphatically stated there is no God. You talk all the time how science tests everything using the scientific method and peer review, then turn around and make an unscientific claim.
Would not true science say that we do not have enough evidence to prove whether there is a God or not?
Is this how Jesus teaches you to talk to people?
Of course you look down on science. You even call it a faith.
I think you are being unnecessarily pejorative about the word "faith." Perhaps we need to dial it back a bit and acknowledge that it is necessary to operate on faith (generic) in many, many matters because we have NOT individually verified everything ourselves. Will you at least grant that? I am certain you have not personally verified everything you believe about what has been discovered by science, right? What would you call the basis of your acceptance if not faith? I do understand that you do not credit ANY religious writings as valid sources of information about anything, let alone God. So I can understand your disdain for any reliance on such sources as the basis for faith in them. But generically, it is the same phenomenon . . . faith . . . that is operative. The difference is in what are deemed reliable sources. Personal experience can be the most powerful source of information and faith . . . but they are not scientifically verifiable. I suspect you would even distrust your own experiences should they involve God. I have had others tell me they would even consider themselves crazy, if they experienced something that caused them to believe in God.
I think you are being unnecessarily pejorative about the word "faith." Perhaps we need to dial it back a bit and acknowledge that it is necessary to operate on faith (generic) in many, many matters because we have NOT individually verified everything ourselves. Will you at least grant that? I am certain you have not personally verified everything you believe about what has been discovered by science, right? What would you call the basis of your acceptance if not faith? I do understand that you do not credit ANY religious writings as valid sources of information about anything, let alone God. So I can understand your disdain for any reliance on such sources as the basis for faith in them. But generically, it is the same phenomenon . . . faith . . . that is operative. The difference is in what are deemed reliable sources. Personal experience can be the most powerful source of information and faith . . . but they are not scientifically verifiable. I suspect you would even distrust your own experiences should they involve God. I have had others tell me they would even consider themselves crazy, if they experienced something that caused them to believe in God.
That was my exact thought Mystic and why I said her belief is faith based to begin with, and would have brought it up except she made the unscientific claim that there is no God which was enough to prove her belief is a faith based belief.
Deoxyribonucleic, Ribonucleic (nucleic acids) with proteins and carbohydrates are essential ingredients for all known forms of life. But, why do we desire things like chocolate, vanilla or strawberry, or various answers to questions? Why do we have a conscience; and what makes things right or wrong?
Are we an inherent part of that something (or someone) that has brought everything into existence?
There are no simple one-liners from a "fortune cookie" that will give us the answer.
However, evolution in and of itself - is not adequate to solve all the mysteries of life.
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Originally Posted by Matadora
Hi Jerwade,
Thank you for this post. You asked a lot of good questions and it helps me to understand your thoughts better.
In a nutshell…DNA (Deoxyribonucleic acid) simply carries our genetic code or instructions. RNA (Ribonucleic acid) simply reads this code and makes proteins which in turn make up living life forms. This is a very over simplified answer but it is the basis.
The reason we have DNA and RNA, is that living forms of life need to propagate or they become extinct. The only way for life to propagate is through the instructions found in DNA that are passed on sexually or asexually.
Here is a link with several very good explanations. The person who breaks it down the best is Joshua Engel, he is the 3rd one down.
DNA can be seen as analagous to an architect's blueprint - a set of instructions to create a living organism from a single cell. ~ Cath Ennis
Do you see the intelligent agent, when things are compared.
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Two reasons. Mainly due to the receptors that are expressed on our taste buds…this is all based on your DNA. However over our lifetime we build many complex associations with flavors and scents that can override our DNA. For example I moved from Houston to CA. I love Tex Mex and can’t stand Cal Mex. You will find people who moved from CA to TX who can’t stand Tex Mex. I love smoked BBQ…this just does not exist in CA…what they pass off for BBQ here is awful tasting to me.
Here are some great websites that help to explain why we all have different tastes.
Throwing a steak on the Barbie, slightly seared on both sides - extremely rare is a personal preference of mine.
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Consciousness is a very interesting topic, and much has been discovered about it in recent years. Here is a very easy (not highly technical or scientific) article that explains it fairly well. What is consciousness? A scientist
Also this website has a lot of good information. Click on the Publications Tab and you can find a lot of very good papers on the subject.
Center for Sleep and Consciousness
There is an overall basic right and wrong that is common unto all of us. Any behaviors that cause intentional harm or suffering to any creature, place or thing…is wrong. What’s great is that we have the ability as conscionable beings to sit down and work out issues of right and wrong.
Sentient beings, as we are capable of perceiving and feeling, experiencing and reasoning.
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This is what puzzles me about ID believers. Where do you get the idea that we are an inherent part of someone/something that has brought everything into existence? We have a very clear idea of how solar systems form as well as how planets form including Earth. We now know how life evolves on Planet Earth. It’s a lot of science to learn and understand…which is why it makes it very difficult to help non-scientists understand all of this information. Science is fascinating and helps us to understand ourselves and the world we live in.
I total agree. Science is complex, however many of what non-scientists see as mysteries are no longer mysteries. Sure there are still unanswered questions about the Universe but make no mistake that many of what you think are mysteries are really not mysteries. I hope that I have helped to clear up some of these for you in my response.
True. Evolution only solved how we came into existence and tells us a lot about who our ancestors were. It also solves the wonder surrounding all the diversity we see here on planet earth.
Evolution is no small contribution to our understanding of things but it certainly does not answer all of life's mysteries.
I want to make it clear that I am no science snob. However it is very difficult to have discussion with non-scientists over all these topics. I am more than willing to point anyone in the direction of anything that can help you understand the science behind anything that appears to be a mystery to you.
... read my profile, if you haven't already. There is no need to be condescending.
I am well educated, but I do appreciate your thoughtfulness to direct me.
The questions were designed to give you some time to think for yourself.
It takes a great deal of faith to believe that things happened randomly, or by chance.
Apparently, you are a person who believes that nothing is known, or can be known of the existence or nature of God - beyond the material phenomena. You claim neither faith, nor disbelief in God. Yet, you have not identified what it is that you personally consider to be this intelligent force that operates in this world, or universe. That which may be responsible for life itself?
I think you are being unnecessarily pejorative about the word "faith." Perhaps we need to dial it back a bit and acknowledge that it is necessary to operate on faith (generic) in many, many matters because we have NOT individually verified everything ourselves. Will you at least grant that? I am certain you have not personally verified everything you believe about what has been discovered by science, right? What would you call the basis of your acceptance if not faith? I do understand that you do not credit ANY religious writings as valid sources of information about anything, let alone God. So I can understand your disdain for any reliance on such sources as the basis for faith in them. But generically, it is the same phenomenon . . . faith . . . that is operative. The difference is in what are deemed reliable sources. Personal experience can be the most powerful source of information and faith . . . but they are not scientifically verifiable. I suspect you would even distrust your own experiences should they involve God. I have had others tell me they would even consider themselves crazy, if they experienced something that caused them to believe in God.
An Intelligent Agent is verifiable; and testable.
Especially, if you consider the human design.
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