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I've never found God's way to be complicated. No gymnastics need to be involved other than exercising our faith, and following in obedience.
You may not find God's way to be complicated, but not everyone is as fortunate as yourself, and many folks have a harder time "exercising" their faith. Some of us just question things, because it is in our nature, something that presumably God gave us. We just don't find it as easy as others apparently do, to accept everything at face value, if something doesn't make sense to us. There's nothing wrong with "blind" faith, (for lack of a better term), if one is satisfied with those answers, but the rest of us need something more. And, since I believe that our Creator put that questing spirit in us, I have to also believe that's it's okay with him, if I look under every rock for answers, regardless of whether or not anyone else approves of my methods.
ok I found the verse:
KJV
12And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.
NIV
12 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.
exodus 9 tanakh jps
12 And HaShem hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as HaShem had spoken unto Moses. 13 And HaShem said unto Moses: 'Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh, and say unto him: Thus saith HaShem, the G-d of the Hebrews: Let My people go, that they may serve Me.
Torah
12. But Moses spoke before the Lord, saying, "Behold, the children of Israel did not hearken to me. How then will Pharaoh hearken to me, seeing that I am of closed lips?"
12. closed lips. Heb. עִרַל שְׂפָתָיִם, Literally, of “closed” lips. Similarly, every expression of (עָרְלָה) I say, denotes a closure: e.g., “their ear is clogged (עִרֵלָה) ” (Jer. 6:10), [meaning] clogged to prevent hearing; “of uncircumcised (עַרְלֵי) hearts” (Jer. 9:25), [meaning] clogged to prevent understanding; “You too drink and become clogged up (וְהֵעָרֵל) ” (Hab. 2:16), [which means] and become clogged up from the intoxication of the cup of the curse; עָרְלַתבָּשָָׂר, the foreskin of the flesh, by which the male membrum is closed up and covered; “and you shall treat its fruit as forbidden (וְעִרַלְךְתֶּם עָרְלָתוֹ) ” (Lev. 19:23), [i. e.,] make for it a closure and a covering of prohibition, which will create a barrier that will prevent you from eating it. “For three years, it shall be closed up [forbidden] (עִרֵלִים) for you” (Lev. 19:23), [i.e.,] closed up, covered, and separated from eating it. How then will Pharaoh hearken to me. This is one of the ten kal vachomer inferences mentioned in the Torah. — [from Gen. Rabbah 92:7] [I.e., inferences from major to minor, such as in this case. I.e., if, because of my speech impediment, the children of Israel, who have everything to gain by listening to me, did not listen to me, Pharaoh, who has everything to lose by listening to me, will surely not listen to me.] Chumash with Rashi - Va'eira - Parshah
I think there is a big difference from what the torah is saying then the other versions. Moses is saying that the people will not listening to me so how is Pharoh going to listen.I(moses) have a hard time speaking to the people that they will understand what I am trying to say.
Torah
exodus 9
33. Moses went away from Pharaoh, out of the city, and he spread out his hands to the Lord, and the thunder and the hail ceased, and rain did not come down to earth. 34. And Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased; so he continued to sin, and he strengthened his heart, he and his servants. 35. And the Lord made Pharaoh's heart strong, and he did not let the children of Israel go out, as the Lord had spoken through the hand of Moses.
So my theory is that God harden his heart after the Fact not before.
Never thought of this before, but why did God have to help out? Pharaoh hardening his heart was not bad enough to get him a go straight to hell card?
You may not find God's way to be complicated, but not everyone is as fortunate as yourself, and many folks have a harder time "exercising" their faith. Some of us just question things, because it is in our nature, something that presumably God gave us. We just don't find it as easy as others apparently do, to accept everything at face value, if something doesn't make sense to us. There's nothing wrong with "blind" faith, (for lack of a better term), if one is satisfied with those answers, but the rest of us need something more. And, since I believe that our Creator put that questing spirit in us, I have to also believe that's it's okay with him, if I look under every rock for answers, regardless of whether or not anyone else approves of my methods.
The Florida ladies on this site are hot...er, intellectually hot, that is. lol
You may not find God's way to be complicated, but not everyone is as fortunate as yourself, and many folks have a harder time "exercising" their faith. Some of us just question things, because it is in our nature, something that presumably God gave us. We just don't find it as easy as others apparently do, to accept everything at face value, if something doesn't make sense to us. There's nothing wrong with "blind" faith, (for lack of a better term), if one is satisfied with those answers, but the rest of us need something more. And, since I believe that our Creator put that questing spirit in us, I have to also believe that's it's okay with him, if I look under every rock for answers, regardless of whether or not anyone else approves of my methods.
(Not to go to far off topic here), but I don't consider my faith blind faith. I would consider it a result of questioning and finding out by experience. I don't believe in accepting everything at face value, either.. not that I condone questioning the Bible, but it definitely is better if we can study and find out the reason, or what scriptures mean. I do think, tho, that sometimes we make things ALOT more complicated than they really are.
Hi, did God know that Pharoah would harden his heart before He created him? Does He see beginning to end and didn't He create him that way if He knew what he was going to do? I don't believe in free will either.
Romans 9 "22 Now if God, wanting to display His indignation and to make His powerful doings known, carries, with much patience, the vessels of indignation, adapted for destruction, 23 it is that He should also be making known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He makes ready before for glory -- 24 us, whom He calls also, not only out of the Jews, but out of the nations also (Concordant Literal)
The roles of the twins were predetermined before they were even born. Is there anything that they could have done to change their situation? And I believe the Pharoah's role was predetermined as was that of Judas. There is also a scripture that says that God fashions the hearts of all men. I will try to find it. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 01-23-2008 at 03:33 PM..
I think in Exodus 5 that God told Moses that He knew that Pharoah would not let the people go except under compulsion, so God already knew what Pharoah would do and then tells Moses the reason for hardening Pharoah's heart (Exodus 7)
"
1. Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.2. "You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land.3. "But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.4."When Pharaoh does not listen to you, then I will lay My hand on Egypt and bring out My hosts, My people the sons of Israel, from the land of Egypt by great judgments.5. "The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the sons of Israel from their midst."
There was a purpose for the hardening according to what God had planned, is how I understand it.
Here is the passage I was looking for,
Psalm 33
10The LORD bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought: he maketh the devices of the people of none effect.
11The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
12Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
13The LORD looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men.
14From the place of his habitation he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth. 15He fashioneth their hearts alike; he considereth all their works. (KJV)
Never thought of this before, but why did God have to help out? Pharaoh hardening his heart was not bad enough to get him a go straight to hell card?
I dunno, maybe Pharaoh was gettin a little old and needed some help? Badumbump...pssssh
I thought you knew your bible and the principles contained inside? You mean you don't already know that Christians believe (For the most part) that the whole world is already under condemnation and already destined to eternal descruction? Oh right, nevermind I get it...I'll play along too then.
God didn't send Pharaoh anywhere he wasn't going already.
Lets go a step further...what if God already knows that Pharaoh is NOT going to respond to a "salvation message" and thus uses him as an instrument in his plan to save those who ARE? He's done him no more harm than was due him already.
I thought you knew your bible and the principles contained inside? You mean you don't already know that Christians believe (For the most part) that the whole world is already under condemnation and already destined to eternal descruction? Oh right, nevermind I get it...I'll play along too then.
lol..you gotta love twentysomething and fatherjohn...they`re trying!
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