Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
ets go a step further...what if God already knows that Pharaoh is NOT going to respond to a "salvation message" and thus uses him as an instrument in his plan to save those who ARE? He's done him no more harm than was due him already.
If this might be the case, did God specifically create him to go to eternal destruction since He already knew that he would not respond to salvation when He created him? In this case, would not God Himself have sent him there initially? God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 01-23-2008 at 05:19 PM..
I dunno, maybe Pharaoh was gettin a little old and needed some help? Badumbump...pssssh
I thought you knew your bible and the principles contained inside? You mean you don't already know that Christians believe (For the most part) that the whole world is already under condemnation and already destined to eternal descruction? Oh right, nevermind I get it...I'll play along too then.
God didn't send Pharaoh anywhere he wasn't going already.
Lets go a step further...what if God already knows that Pharaoh is NOT going to respond to a "salvation message" and thus uses him as an instrument in his plan to save those who ARE? He's done him no more harm than was due him already.
You know something, JViello, I used to work with that same conclusion. Yes, God knew beforehand that Pharaoh was going to be a prick so he set it up so that he made it to the throne and just helped along his merry way to hell. Sounds great, right? Well the context says otherwise. Pharaoh is "raised up" to be bashed and the following [rhetorical] verses, clear indications that people were going to question such an idea, hints to the problem we are still struggling with today in regards to this passage.
The writer goes on the defensive much like Christians of today. "Hey, who are you to question God? Can you, the 'thing,' question your maker? He does whatever he pleases and has mercy on whoever he wants to have mercy on and hardens the heart of whoever he wants to harden. He has the right to make vessels of honor as well as those of dishonor. END OF STORY!"
The implication in this area of the chapter is that God PRE-ORDAINED the characters on the stage and we are not to question it. For kicks, let's toss in Jesus' [alleged] words in the Gospel of John. He said (paraphrased), "no man can come to me UNLESS THE FATHER DRAWS HIM." What if God is not interested in drawing me, or G-Troop or Richard Dawkins?
I'm not sure that this is a fair observation. This verse, and many others, do trouble some Christians. Not all of them accept these passages at face value, and for good reason. They are very hard to reconcile, to all but the most adamant folks, who seem determined to ignore passages that, at the very least, appear inconsistent. Yes, it is true that many of these odd verses can be reconciled, but there are others that cannot, unless one insists on Biblical gymnastics. I realize that many Christians believe that every word in the Bible is to be taken literally, which is fine for them. I don't happen to be one of them, and I have no problem with admitting that there are some things that don't jive with one another. When a verse says that God "set up" Pharaoh, and talks about one vessel being made for honor, and one for dishonor, by God, all the flips and turns one can make just don't quite make the idea of "free will" fit, in my opinion.
CelticLady1: You are more than welcome to believe in free will, but you must then relinquish any belief in the sovereignty of God for unless He is totally sovereign (which is what the term itself demands), He is NOT sovereign at all. You cannot have it both ways. Do you believe that God is sovereign?
Actually, it's not too hard to reconcile those verses. Basically, God made all the rules. He decided under what conditions to show mercy. We have free will to decide, but we have no power to make the rules. Our fate is determined only upon our actions.
Yes. God has made us. But take a look at the following verses in context:
Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 ¶ As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
IMO, the Jews in the OT were the vessels unto honor, and the Gentiles unto dishonor. But it says that God endured this with much longsuffering, that He might make known the riches of His Glory. Then it goes on to say that now, we can all be vessels of honor. "also of the Gentiles.... I will call them my people, which were not my people," etc. Basically, it's saying, God made us who we are, but He has made a way.
cg81: All of these things are still in the sovereign plans and will of God--not in man's. There is nothing here that suggests that God will change vessels of wrath to vessel of honor based upon their actions. If they were created as vessels of dishonor and destined to destruction, that will be their end.
And see, the conflict rages as it as for centuries. We cannot settle on something that is supposed to be vital to all mankind, something they call "the word of God." Had this been 600 years ago, one side of this argument would have been going to stakes and branded as heretics. lol
Sure Dave! Go on. I've done this breakdown before (at least what you have so far), but I want to her your confusion...um, conclusion. LOL Could not resist, but please carry on.
TwentyFourSeven: Dave does not sound confused to me. What he says makes perfect sense. Good job, Dave!
These statements might not be satisfying to human reason but they are statements based on what Scripture clearly teaches. Since we dare not draw apparently logical conclusions which the Scriptures do not allow, we take our reason captive to God’s Word (2 Corinthians 10:5)
"How unsearchable are his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" (Romans 11:33-36).
Human reason has problems with the question why some are saved and not others. Human reason has trouble reconciling God's love for the whole world and his universal atonement with the particular predestination of some to salvation.
Calvin tried to solve the problem by drawing a conclusion that is logical according to human reason but which contradicts the Scriptures. He correctly says that those who are finally saved have been predestined by God for salvation, but he incorrectly concludes that those who are lost have been predestined by God to damnation.
According to the Bible, if we are saved it is all to the credit of our God and his grace (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:10-28, Romans 8:29-30). If we are lost it is all our own fault (John 3:16-18, Romans 6:23a, Romans 1:18-23, Matthew 23:37).
Calvin's teaching makes good logical sense but is not taught in Scripture. Predestination or election is used only of believers (Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4-7). Predestination pertains to salvation not damnation. For the Bible also tells us that "God our Savior wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:3-4).
The Bible says, "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).
Ezekiel writes, "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?" (Ezekiel 33:11).
Calvinism teaches limited atonement, that is, Jesus died only for the elect. However, the Bible teaches,
"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2).
John the Baptist pointed at Jesus and declared, "Look, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1:29)
Paul writes, "God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them" (2 Corinthians 5:19).
To teach limited atonement is to contradict these clear passages of Scripture.
To say that God not only wants some people to be damned but actually predestines them to damnation is to contradict these clear passages of Scripture.
"I am the good Shepherd, and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father, and I lay down My life FOR THE SHEEP" (John 10:14, 15).
He is the propitiation for sins--there is no other hope for the world of men. It is in that general sense that He died for the whole world. But no one comes to the Father except through Christ. There is no hope of forgiveness apart from Christ. That does not mean that all sinners will be given grace. His death on the cross is the hope for the world, but not all have been chosen to receive its benefits.
If God wants all to be saved and to come to repentance in the sense in which you are understanding these verses, then He is NOT sovereign. For what God wills, HE DOES!
It is the fact that God has determined and provided the only MEANS of salvation that places all men under condemnation. Those in Christ Jesus are not condemned; those not in Christ Jesus are condemned. Only those whom the Father gives to the Son have that salvation imputed into their account as righteousness. He has not given all to the Son. And those whom the Father gives to the Son are His sheep, so in fact and in the end, His shed blood benefits only the sheep--the elect!
To say that God not only wants some people to be damned but actually predestines them to damnation is to contradict these clear passages of Scripture.
So true
Quote:
For what God wills, HE DOES!
This is true!
Quote:
He has not given all to the Son.
I believe that He has given all to the Son.
Matthew 11
27"All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
John 3
35"The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.
Jesus has been made heir of all things. (Hebrews 1)
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 01-23-2008 at 07:47 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
