"Free will" and Romans chapter 9 (disciples, Christ, Kingdom)

[I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA]

Originally Posted by TwentyFourSeven

This is like saying, "I'm black you won't understand, huh?"

Preterist, please, with all due respect, that has NOTHING to do with whether a person can understand the bible or not. I not only understand the Bible, I also know the various concepts and interpretations Christians use because I was a DEDICATED and well read Christian for more than half of my life. I persevered with these nice and neatly prepackaged answers despite reason and common sense saying otherwise. This topic we're on just happens to be one that never quite seemed to ever make any sense to me even if admitted the sovereignty of God. It made him seem very unfair.

Yes it does, it has EVERYTHING to do with it. Your color does not. 1 Corinthians 2:14 " But people who aren't Christians can't understand the truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them because only those who have the Spirit can understand what the Spirit means".

[TwentyFourSeven]

Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA

Yes it does, it has EVERYTHING to do with it. Your color does not. 1 Corinthians 2:14 " But people who aren't Christians can't understand the truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them because only those who have the Spirit can understand what the Spirit means".

Oye vey! That's quite encouraging.

[shibainu]

Originally Posted by TwentyFourSeven

Never thought of this before, but why did God have to help out? Pharaoh hardening his heart was not bad enough to get him a go straight to hell card?

This is answer On Ask Moses:

G-d knows what you are going to do because He is beyond time. For Him, it all happened already. So, how does that imply that He denies us free choice to make those decisions?
In other words, knowledge of the future is a result of the events of the future, not their cause. In G–d’s super-temporal realm, the result can exist before the cause. But it’s still a result and not a cause.

How can one have Free Choice if G-d ultimately knows the future? | AskMoses.com - Judaism, Ask a Rabbi - Live

I found it interesting because it goes with the other thread about the theory of Time.

[ShanaBrown]

G-d knows what you are going to do because He is beyond time. For Him, it all happened already. So, how does that imply that He denies us free choice to make those decisions?
In other words, knowledge of the future is a result of the events of the future, not their cause. In G–d’s super-temporal realm, the result can exist before the cause. But it’s still a result and not a cause.

Think about the twins, Jacob and Esau. Is there anyway that they could have changed their situation if their roles were already predetermined by God? If you say that God just knew how they would be and did not cause this to happen, this still doesn't change the fact that they could not have chosen otherwise, right? "The older shall serve the younger." This was explained further in the passage in that Paul says that God says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy..." Their situation was because this was God's choice for them from what I understand. And also does this mean that God's knowledge of the future is dependent on how the events take place in the future, that He doesn't know what will happen until it happens? God bless.

[shibainu]

Originally Posted by TwentyFourSeven

Never thought of this before, but why did God have to help out? Pharaoh hardening his heart was not bad enough to get him a go straight to hell card?

Found something of interest:
Maimonides: Free Will and a Hardened Heart - a Contradiction?
Maimonides states in his Laws of Repentance, chapter 5, God never removes one’s free will. He calls this a “great fundamental”. This makes sense, as the Torah is a system where ‘reward and punishment’ is a cornerstone. Thus, man must always be the sole cause of his actions. How then do we understand Maimonides’ theory on God hardening Pharaoh’s heart? In his Laws of Repentance 6:3, Maimonides writes, “And it is possible that man sin a great sin, or many sins, until the judgment is given before the True Judge that the punishment for this sinner on these sins that he did with his will and his knowledge, is that repentance is prevented from him, and he is not allowed permission to return from his evil so that he should die and expire in his sin that he did...Therefore it is written in the Torah, ‘and I will harden Pharaoh’s heart.’ Since he sinned initially by himself, and did evil to the Jews living in his land, as it says, ‘come, let us be wise’, Judgment was passed to prevent repentance from him, until punishment was exacted from him. Therefore, God hardened his heart.”

Moderator cut: copyright violation-please post snippet and link only

Moses' Mission & Pharaoh's Free Will

[ShanaBrown]

What does this mean then as far as having free will?

"So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will (intention)? On the the contrary who are you, 'O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this?' Or does the Potter have the right over the clay to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use? "

There is no contradiction in Maimonides’ words. God gives man free will to do good and evil, and never removes this freedom. In one area however, God does compromise man’s free will: the area of repentance.

If God does this in one area according to this author, does man really have free will? God prevents him from repenting and is acting on his will.

God bless.

[TwentyFourSeven]

Continuing with this idea of "free will" that so far, some believe we have while others wonder if we have such a thing as per their understanding of Romans 9, we then have another puzzling passage in the New Testament allegedly spoken by Jesus. According to the Gospels, Jesus intentionally speaks in psycho-babble to leave his audience in a cloud of confusion. He even confuses his own Disciples whom he tells they are "given" [the understanding] to discern the meaning of his parables, but to the lost, no such ability is given because they might hear and understand and might convert.

Again, this sounds like preference, favoritism, predestination. Some are chosen to known the ways of God, chosen to seek his face, chosen to understand while others are not.

[TwentyFourSeven]

Originally Posted by TwentyFourSeven

Continuing with this idea of "free will" that so far, some believe we have while others wonder if we have such a thing as per their understanding of Romans 9, we then have another puzzling passage in the New Testament allegedly spoken by Jesus. According to the Gospels, Jesus intentionally speaks in psycho-babble to leave his audience in a cloud of confusion. He even confuses his own Disciples whom he tells they are "given" [the understanding] to discern the meaning of his parables, but to the lost, no such ability is given because they might hear and understand and might convert.

Again, this sounds like preference, favoritism, predestination. Some are chosen to known the ways of God, chosen to seek his face, chosen to understand while others are not.

Even his own Disciples had no clue what he was talking about and he even seems frustrated that they just don't get it.

[shibainu]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

What does this mean then as far as having free will?

"So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will (intention)? On the the contrary who are you, 'O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this?' Or does the Potter have the right over the clay to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use? "



If God does this in one area according to this author, does man really have free will? God prevents him from repenting and is acting on his will.

God bless.

God did not prevent him. God says you have a choice of good or evil. You choose one or the other. It is up to god to decide your fate if you do evil. So god has a choice if he will accept your repentence or not.

[shibainu]

Originally Posted by TwentyFourSeven

Continuing with this idea of "free will" that so far, some believe we have while others wonder if we have such a thing as per their understanding of Romans 9, we then have another puzzling passage in the New Testament allegedly spoken by Jesus. According to the Gospels, Jesus intentionally speaks in psycho-babble to leave his audience in a cloud of confusion. He even confuses his own Disciples whom he tells they are "given" [the understanding] to discern the meaning of his parables, but to the lost, no such ability is given because they might hear and understand and might convert.

Again, this sounds like preference, favoritism, predestination. Some are chosen to known the ways of God, chosen to seek his face, chosen to understand while others are not.

Where was this again. Jesus said a lot of stuff that never make sence. It is usually a lot of double talk.