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Old 07-17-2015, 02:24 PM
 
2,672 posts, read 2,235,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
There's been a change, and it's all because of Jesus.

No. There has not been a change. What there has been is a fulfillment of a promise which puts a new covenant fully into effect, transcending the law with something promised long ago. And Abraham believed God, which was accredited to him as righteousness. Abraham believed in the promise to be fulfilled. We place our faith in the promise that WAS fulfilled.
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Old 07-17-2015, 02:27 PM
 
2,672 posts, read 2,235,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Yea...Thought so...That's all ya got...

I've read the Bible from cover to cover about 300 times. I read the NT 10 times per year. How many times have you read the Bible? My guess would be never, because it's looking like you're completely unfamiliar with what is essentially basic doctrine about the ingrafting of the gentiles into the family of God. Ultimately, the meaning of "Israel" is the eternal kingdom of God set in the promised land, with New Jerusalem as it's capital.
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Old 07-17-2015, 02:30 PM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 22,033,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin View Post
I've read the Bible from cover to cover about 300 times. I read the NT 10 times per year. How many times have you read the Bible? My guess would be never, because it's looking like you're completely unfamiliar with what is essentially basic doctrine about the ingrafting of the gentiles into the family of God. Ultimately, the meaning of "Israel" is the eternal kingdom of God set in the promised land, with New Jerusalem as it's capital.
Oh, you'd be so wrong about that...

300 times, huh?...So you say...Kept count, huh?...

Trust me, I'm not unfamiliar with anything...
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Old 07-17-2015, 02:32 PM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 22,033,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin View Post
No. There has not been a change. What there has been is a fulfillment of a promise which puts a new covenant fully into effect, transcending the law with something promised long ago. And Abraham believed God, which was accredited to him as righteousness. Abraham believed in the promise to be fulfilled. We place our faith in the promise that WAS fulfilled.
You mean "credited", don't you?...

And how was this promise fulfilled?...
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Old 07-17-2015, 02:46 PM
 
2,672 posts, read 2,235,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Oh, you'd be so wrong about that...

300 times, huh?...So you say...Kept count, huh?...

Trust me, I'm not unfamiliar with anything...
You want to quibble about how many times I've read the Bible. Let's get down to brass tacks about the issue.

A true Israelite is not literal descent from Abraham, but one who believes in Abraham's God. "Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." Galatians 3:7.

"For they are not all Israel which are of Israel; neither because they are the seed of Abraham are they all children… but the children of promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9:6-8.

"The children of promise are those who put their faith in Jesus. It's in the Bible: "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise" Galatians 3:29.

Whether they are Jewish or Gentile, God regards only those who have renewed hearts as true Jews in the spiritual sense of "Israel" - his chosen people. THIS CONCEPT STARTED in the Mosaic Law of the Torah. Thus we see that the New Covenant was promised by God in the OT. It is not a "new" idea or something replaces something else. It always was. Before Jesus, it as a promise. After Jesus, it became a covenant in his blood.

"For he is not a Jew which is one outwardly, nor is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter' whose praise is not from men but from God." Romans 2:28,29, NKJV.

"For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." Philippians 3:3, NKJV

This is nothing but orthodox Jesus teaching. Supercessionists and replacement theology proponents are misguided.
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Old 07-17-2015, 02:50 PM
 
Location: Pilot Point, TX
7,874 posts, read 14,179,752 times
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It's no use - Richard doesn't like Paul.

But a whale of a post LZ!
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Old 07-17-2015, 03:00 PM
 
2,672 posts, read 2,235,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
You mean "credited", don't you?...

And how was this promise fulfilled?...

The promise was fulfilled in Jesus as the Messiah.

What do you think accredited means?
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Old 07-17-2015, 04:39 PM
 
19,942 posts, read 17,189,177 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
G-d says that He abhors a human sacrifice AND that no man may die for the sins of another, but each man shall die for his own sins....
That's why he himself died for our sin.
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Old 07-17-2015, 05:13 PM
 
Location: Pilot Point, TX
7,874 posts, read 14,179,752 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin View Post
No. There has not been a change. What there has been is a fulfillment of a promise which puts a new covenant fully into effect, transcending the law with something promised long ago. And Abraham believed God, which was accredited to him as righteousness. Abraham believed in the promise to be fulfilled. We place our faith in the promise that WAS fulfilled.
I agree wholeheartedly - the "change" I was referring to is this:

Under the law, demand
Under grace, supply

Under the law, 3000 died at Mt. Sinai (Exod. 32:28)
Under grace, 3000 were saved at Pentecost (Acts 2:41)

Under the law, water is turned to blood resulting in death
Under grace, water is turned to wine resulting in celebration

Under the law, God will visit the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation
Under grace, God says I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

The law demands righteousness
Grace provides righteousness


God has made us able ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
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Old 07-17-2015, 06:26 PM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 22,033,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin View Post
The promise was fulfilled in Jesus as the Messiah.

What do you think accredited means?
No...You are misapplying that word...
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