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Old 07-17-2015, 01:51 PM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 21,889,487 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AliciaWilliams View Post
Hey Richard, are you by chance referring to the Framework Interpretation? I found this article on equip.org that kinda sounds like what you're saying.
In it the author, Dr. Lee Irons, states that a clue
"of the presence of a literary framework is the fact that days one and four are so closely connected that they are best viewed as narrating the same event from different points of view. Day one narrates the creation of light. We are also told that “God separated the light from the darkness” (Gen. 1:4). Day four narrates the creation of the luminaries (the sun, moon, and stars). Strikingly, on day four we are told that the reason God created the luminaries was to accomplish the separation that was already narrated on day one: “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night” (Gen. 1:14). Rather than viewing this as a redundancy, we should recognize that day four is an instance of “temporal recapitulation.” This phenomenon of biblical narrative occurs when the author first narrates an event in summary fashion, continues with subsequent events as the narrative unfolds, and then returns to the initial event to elaborate on it with further detail (e.g., compare Gen. 1:26–27 with 2:5–7, and compare Gen. 2:8–9 with 2:15–17). Days one and four are not referring to different events, but to the same event viewed from different perspectives. Day one narrates the basic result; day four narrates the creation of the mechanism that is the physical cause of that result (e.g., the earth-Sun relationship)."
I faintly recall learning somewhere that Martin Luther King Jr. fought his contemporaries against the view that God created everything in one day, but I never heard his specific argument.

I have also read this article by Ken Ham, which states that
"Genesis 1:3 tells us that God created light on the first day, and the phrase “evening and morning” shows there were alternating periods of light and darkness. Therefore, light was in existence, coming from one direction upon a rotating earth, resulting in the day and night cycle. However, we are told exactly where this light came from. The word for “light” in Genesis 1:3 means the substance of light that was created. Then, on day four in Genesis 1:14–19 we are told of the creation of the sun which was to be the source of light from that time onward. The sun was created to rule the day that already existed."
Honestly, given my studies of the ancient poetry used in the Psalms I would go with the Framework interpretation, except that I also know that the word used for "day" in Genesis 1 is "yom," and in the context of the creation narrative "yom" can only mean a regular day.

Zero 7 - there are a lot of people reading a book called The Lost World of Genesis One, which is supposed to bring a fresh look to the age-old debate (no pun intended). I hope you're getting the answers you're looking for!
This was according to Rashi...

Yom can also mean a time period...


Yom (in Hebrew יום) is a Biblical Hebrew word which occurs in the Hebrew Bible (or Old Testament). The Arabic equivalent is "yawm" written as يوم.
Although it is commonly rendered as day in English translations, the word yom has several literal definitions: [1]
Period of light (as contrasted with the period of darkness),
Period of twenty-four hours
General term for time
Point of time
Sunrise to sunset
Sunset to next sunset
A year (in the plural; I Sam 27:7; Ex 13:10, etc.)
Time period of unspecified length.
A long, but finite span of time - age - epoch - season.

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom


So, context is important...
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Old 07-17-2015, 01:53 PM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
Where did you get such an idea?
You!...
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Old 07-17-2015, 02:12 PM
 
19,942 posts, read 17,109,556 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
You!...
No...I never said anything close to that.
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Old 07-17-2015, 02:17 PM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
No...I never said anything close to that.
Yes you did....
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Old 07-17-2015, 02:23 PM
 
19,942 posts, read 17,109,556 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Yes you did....
can you quote me?
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Old 07-18-2015, 01:13 AM
 
Location: California USA
1,714 posts, read 1,140,022 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Sorry. This is more apologetic wriggling. You are describing how it looked from an earth shrouded in gloom and clouds (Job 37.9? "Out of the south comes whirlwind, and out of the north, cold."? You must have some other passage in mind.) and not as it actually was. But there was nobody around to see how it looked from the earth. The Bible (if it is telling us what God knew) should logically describe what actually happened at creation, not how it looked from the human point of view - when there were no humans around to view it.

You are simply doing more fiddling to try to get Genesis to fit what science tells us about the order in which things happened. As I see in all the links to articles trying to fiddle the meanings of the Bible text to make it say something different from what it does say - that the light and dark were separated and alternating and were called day and night. Morning and evening. And each day of creation is marked by these mornings and evenings.

It's as plain as a pikestaff but, because it makes no sense to have mornings and evenings before the sun was created, we get Bible apologists trying to reinterpret the Hebrew to make a 'day' mean something other than a day, or introduce the 'cloud -cover' excuse which, as I point out above, makes no sense from a book telling us what God knew.

Bite the bullet, folks: Genesis does not fit science. Assuming you don't reject science in favour of Myth (and if you do, you have no basis for arguing anything from scientifically validated evidence), accept that Genesis is not accurate, fact, History or science. It is a mythological story loosely based on the Mesopotamian stories of creation after the 1st millennium B.C.
According to your opinion and not according to what the Bible teaches. The Bible doesn't need to tell us exactly what happened at creation because God gave us a brain to use and physical laws upon which scientific experimentation could take place. The heavens and earth were created in the beginning as stated in the opening passage of the Bible and there was light prior to the sun, stars, celestial bodies becoming visible (see Genesis 1:3). Why? because the celestial bodies (and the sun is a celestial body) were already created (see Genesis 1:1). However you are correct about Job 37:9. I meant Job 38:9
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Old 07-18-2015, 01:24 AM
 
Location: California USA
1,714 posts, read 1,140,022 times
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[quote=AREQUIPA;40445548]



Quote:
It's as plain as a pikestaff but, because it makes no sense to have mornings and
evenings before the sun was created, we get Bible apologists trying to
reinterpret the Hebrew to make a 'day' mean something other than a day, or
introduce the 'cloud -cover' excuse which, as I point out above, makes no sense
from a book telling us what God knew.
There are people who actually have the academic training to make a scholarly assessment of what the Hebrew word used in the creation account meant and they would disagree with you. But I could be mistaken perhaps you have training in this matter?

Last edited by hd4me; 07-18-2015 at 01:39 AM..
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Old 07-18-2015, 09:53 AM
 
89 posts, read 73,747 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
This was according to Rashi...

Yom can also mean a time period...


Yom (in Hebrew יום) is a Biblical Hebrew word which occurs in the Hebrew Bible (or Old Testament). The Arabic equivalent is "yawm" written as يوم.
Although it is commonly rendered as day in English translations, the word yom has several literal definitions: [1]
Period of light (as contrasted with the period of darkness),
Period of twenty-four hours
General term for time
Point of time
Sunrise to sunset
Sunset to next sunset
A year (in the plural; I Sam 27:7; Ex 13:10, etc.)
Time period of unspecified length.
A long, but finite span of time - age - epoch - season.

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom


So, context is important...
Brown-Driver-Brigg's Definition
1. day, time, year
1. day (as opposed to night)
2. day (24 hour period)
1. as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
2. as a division of time 1b
3. a working day, a day's journey
4. days, lifetime (pl.)
5. time, period (general)
6. year
7. temporal references
1. today
2. yesterday
3. tomorrow
יֹ֔ום (yôm) can mean a time period, but that is not the case in Genesis 1. When Genesis was written the Egyptians were using sundials, but they could only indicate time during sunlight hours, and the few twilight hours. So even with those sundials, time would be measured by the sun, morning through evening. That is how the original audience of Genesis would know a single day, morning and evening. So Moses wasn't necessarily saying there was literally a morning and evening, but rather that the time for a single day had passed.

gtg, more later!
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Old 07-18-2015, 10:57 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,081 posts, read 20,528,855 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hd4me View Post
According to your opinion and not according to what the Bible teaches. The Bible doesn't need to tell us exactly what happened at creation because God gave us a brain to use and physical laws upon which scientific experimentation could take place. The heavens and earth were created in the beginning as stated in the opening passage of the Bible and there was light prior to the sun, stars, celestial bodies becoming visible (see Genesis 1:3). Why? because the celestial bodies (and the sun is a celestial body) were already created (see Genesis 1:1). However you are correct about Job 37:9. I meant Job 38:9
Ok. That talks of the clouds as a garment for the earth as is also the darkness. That is what we find today. It is also raising a point about what facts unknown to man are being dictated by God in Job. There is considerable doubt that it is anything more than a didactic story written by a man.

That said, you are merely repeating the claim that does not stand up - that the sun was already created but the clouds hid it. But that is not what Genesis says. It says that God made two great lights - the sun and the moon. It does not say that God removed the clouds that had obscured the sun and moon -though the light and dark supposedly were visible enough to mark morning and evening. If that was what God did. That is what it should say. You are re-writing Genesis to make it fit science and save its' crumbling credibility.

You talk of using brains and scientific experimentation. The science tells us that what Genesis says is wrong and our brains ought to tell us that it makes no sense that God would say what a man at the time would think he saw rather than say what God actually did. You are craftily trying to evade the problem by saying that the Bible doesn't need to tell us what happened. It DOES tell us what happened - but it tells us wrong. It could easily have told us the Right way it happened - if it was true.

I still say that you are wriggling and squirming in trying to get around the fact that Science and Genesis do not agree. I suppose what you are trying to do is better that saying that Genesis is right and Science wrong, but I am sorry, trying to rewrite Genesis to make it work will not wash.
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Old 07-18-2015, 11:23 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,081 posts, read 20,528,855 times
Reputation: 5927
[quote=hd4me;40457950]
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post





There are people who actually have the academic training to make a scholarly assessment of what the Hebrew word used in the creation account meant and they would disagree with you. But I could be mistaken perhaps you have training in this matter?
Ah. You are trying to buy the debate with appeal to authority. But no authority or expert is above being called on if there are doubts. Don't the believers always say that 'science is always changing its mind/ always getting things wrong'? Don't they always object that we are using a modern mind to apply to ancient writings?

No, I do not claim to be an expert in Hebrew. I am willing to check up the original Hebrew, but it seems beside the point in dickering about the usages of the term we translate as 'day' when the period it marks is begin and ended by morning and evening. days before the sun and moon were made. It is six days of work and rest on the Sabbat - as all good Jews did, including their god.
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