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Watching a debate on the historicity of Christ, the apologist made the following comment as part of his "proof" Jesus really resurrected:
Quote:
“Even though they were crucified, stoned, stabbed, dragged, skinned and burned, every last apostle of Jesus proclaimed his resurrection until his dying breath, refusing to recant under pressure from the authorities. Therefore, their testimony is trustworthy and the resurrection is true.”
I know that the Bible mentions only two of the apostles' deaths---Judas Iscariot and James. None of the other apostles' deaths are mentioned in the Bible including Peter's and Paul's. Pouring over non-Biblical historical evidence I find nothing from the prominent historians of the 1st century regarding the apostles being martyred for their faith.
The quote above is recited by nearly every apologist almost as a statement of faith or creed, but I cannot find any evidence to support it. Does anyone have any historically RELIABLE sources that state specifically who, when and how any of the apostles, other than the two mentioned, died? It would go a long way toward helping myself and others decide whether it's all mythmaking or historically factual. Please, no "You're already decided it's myth, Thrill, so why should we bother?" Remember, you're not only proving my presuppositions wrong but you're helping strengthen the faith of other Christians here who have wondered the same thing.
Most secular scholars would deny Jesus or any apostles of Christ ever existed , but the Romans keep accurate records on most things.......Tertullian a Christian Latin apologist wrote that Apostle John was put in boiling oil at the Colosseum but was not burned , so the Romans banished John to the island of Patmos where he passed in isolation Clement of Rome reported that Peter was in Rome persecuted and came onto death ....................See in these days all people had some base of belief whether it was Christians or Roman gods or pagan Greek belief or other religions so if secular is atheist then there were none in right standing , as it was not until the year 666 AD when Secular humanism took off and then stone idols were thrown out
Most secular scholars would deny Jesus or any apostles of Christ ever existed , but the Romans keep accurate records on most things.......Tertullian a Christian Latin apologist wrote that Apostle John was put in boiling oil at the Colosseum but was not burned , so the Romans banished John to the island of Patmos where he passed in isolation Clement of Rome reported that Peter was in Rome persecuted and came onto death ....................See in these days all people had some base of belief whether it was Christians or Roman gods or pagan Greek belief or other religions so if secular is atheist then there were none in right standing , as it was not until the year 666 AD when Secular humanism took off and then stone idols were thrown out
I appreciate your reply, hljc. I know you and I are at odds on many issues. Really, what I'm after is anything originating not later than 100AD which would place the writer in the time of the apostles, assuming they lived as along as John is reputed to have lived. Speculating that the apostles made it as far as the Far East (India and beyond) or as far as into Africa or Europe in their zeal to spread the gospel and follow Jesus' command to "go out into all the world" there might exist ancient writings from those areas dating from the 1st century that mention the apostles coming to a bad end for their faith. Tertullian is problematic because he lived 155-240 AD so anything he heard would be hearsay. Now if he read it from a credible source from the 1st century and that writing exists today this would provide credible proof that at least one or two apostles died martyrs. That would be sufficient to establish the likelihood that all or most also were martyred. Many pagan writings have endured long from before 0 CE so it's not out of the realm of possibility that some that have endured mention some of the apostles.
The quote above is recited by nearly every apologist almost as a statement of faith or creed, but I cannot find any evidence to support it. Does anyone have any historically RELIABLE sources that state specifically who, when and how any of the apostles, other than the two mentioned, died? It would go a long way toward helping myself and others decide whether it's all mythmaking or historically factual. .
Funny you should mention it but I was watching the debate between Bart Ehrman and William Lane Craig just the other day, and Ehrman makes that very point.
According to Erhman he can find no evidence that the apostles were martyred in any of the ancient texts from the first few centuries..........and Erham specialists in studying original ancient text in its original language.
Needless to say William Lane Craig did not respond to this particular point of Ehrman's.
So if Ehrman can't find any proper evidence then I doubt anyone here can!
Funny you should mention it but I was watching the debate between Bart Ehrman and William Lane Craig just the other day, and Ehrman makes that very point.
According to Erhman he can find no evidence that the apostles were martyred in any of the ancient texts from the first few centuries..........and Erham specialists in studying original ancient text in its original language.
Needless to say William Lane Craig did not respond to this particular point of Ehrman's.
So if Ehrman can't find any proper evidence then I doubt anyone here can!
The Martyrdom of Peter and Paul is reported by Eusebius and Dionysus, Bishop of Corinth.
Eusebius: Church History Book II
Chapter 25. The Persecution under Nero in which Paul and Peter were honored at Rome with Martyrdom in Behalf of Religion.
5. Thus publicly announcing himself as the first among God's chief enemies, he was led on to the slaughter of the apostles. It is, therefore, recorded that Paul was beheaded in Rome itself, and that Peter likewise was crucified under Nero. This account of Peter and Paul is substantiated by the fact that their names are preserved in the cemeteries of that place even to the present day.
6. It is confirmed likewise by Caius, a member of the Church, who arose under Zephyrinus, bishop of Rome. He, in a published disputation with Proclus, the leader of the Phrygian heresy, speaks as follows concerning the places where the sacred corpses of the aforesaid apostles are laid:
7. “But I can show the trophies of the apostles. For if you will go to the Vatican or to the Ostian way, you will find the trophies of those who laid the foundations of this church.”
8. And that they both suffered martyrdom at the same time is stated by Dionysius, bishop of Corinth, in his epistle to the Romans, in the following words: “You have thus by such an admonition bound together the planting of Peter and of Paul at Rome and Corinth. For both of them planted and likewise taught us in our Corinth. And they taught together in like manner in Italy, and suffered martyrdom at the same time.” I have quoted these things in order that the truth of the history might be still more confirmed.
Dionysius, bishop of Corinth is mentioned by Eusebius in section 8 above.
Dionysius, bishop of Corinth: Estimated Range of Dating: A.D.165-175
Fragments from a Letter to the Roman Church.
III.
Therefore you also have by such admonition joined in close union the churches that were planted by Peter and Paul, that of the Romans and that of the Corinthians: for both of them went to our Corinth, and taught us in the same way as they taught you when they went to Italy; and having taught you, they suffered martyrdom at the same time.
The Martyrdom of Peter and Paul is reported by Eusebius and Dionysus, Bishop of Corinth.
Eusebius: Church History Book II
Chapter 25. The Persecution under Nero in which Paul and Peter were honored at Rome with Martyrdom in Behalf of Religion.
5. Thus publicly announcing himself as the first among God's chief enemies, he was led on to the slaughter of the apostles. It is, therefore, recorded that Paul was beheaded in Rome itself, and that Peter likewise was crucified under Nero. This account of Peter and Paul is substantiated by the fact that their names are preserved in the cemeteries of that place even to the present day.
6. It is confirmed likewise by Caius, a member of the Church, who arose under Zephyrinus, bishop of Rome. He, in a published disputation with Proclus, the leader of the Phrygian heresy, speaks as follows concerning the places where the sacred corpses of the aforesaid apostles are laid:
7. “But I can show the trophies of the apostles. For if you will go to the Vatican or to the Ostian way, you will find the trophies of those who laid the foundations of this church.”
8. And that they both suffered martyrdom at the same time is stated by Dionysius, bishop of Corinth, in his epistle to the Romans, in the following words: “You have thus by such an admonition bound together the planting of Peter and of Paul at Rome and Corinth. For both of them planted and likewise taught us in our Corinth. And they taught together in like manner in Italy, and suffered martyrdom at the same time.” I have quoted these things in order that the truth of the history might be still more confirmed.
Dionysius of Corinth is mentioned by Eusebius in section 8 above.
Dionysius of Corinth Estimated Range of Dating: A.D.165-175
Fragments from a Letter to the Roman Church.
III.
Therefore you also have by such admonition joined in close union the churches that were planted by Peter and Paul, that of the Romans and that of the Corinthians: for both of them went to our Corinth, and taught us in the same way as they taught you when they went to Italy; and having taught you, they suffered martyrdom at the same time.
The Martyrdom of Peter and Paul is reported by Eusebius and Dionysus, Bishop of Corinth.
Accept it or reject it. Your choice.
Mike555, what exactly am I supposed to be "accepting or rejecting here"
Neither Eusabius or Dionysus lived at the time of the apostles, nor are they non biased independent or secular accounts,
Try again.
Last edited by Klambo; 08-12-2015 at 11:13 PM..
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Many pagan writings have endured long from before 0 CE so it's not out of the realm of possibility that some that have endured mention some of the apostles.
