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Old 08-13-2015, 11:31 AM
 
10,183 posts, read 10,549,080 times
Reputation: 3018

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It's not hard to see that Jesus, if you read his words carefully, did not consider his death to be an atonement for the sins of all mankind. That was a later wrinkle added to all the man-made theological baggage that shaped the doctrine of Christianity. Here are Jesus' own words proving he did not come to save all men:

1. Then Jesus said, “I was not sent except to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15:24).

2. He expressly told them, “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel” Matthew 10:6

Yet a second time Jesus is stating his mission is to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" and no one else.

3. He replied, "It is not right to take the children's [lost sheep of the house of Israel] bread and toss it to the dogs. [Gentiles]" Matthew 15:26

4. "For the Son of Man came to give his life as a ransom for "many"." Mark 10:45


So in at least four places in the scriptures Jesus makes it plain his mission is to the Jews, and not even ALL the Jews but only to the lost ones. This would lead to several conclusions:

1. His purpose for coming wasn't to save all Jews, only the lost ones

Therefore:

2. He wasn't send to anyone outside the house of Israel

Therefore

3. If he openly states he has no mission to anyone other than the lost sheep of Israel, he is saying he has no mission or duty to benefit Gentiles in any way, shape or form

Therefore

4. Jesus admits, per Mark's "many" he didn't come to "give his life a ransom" for Gentiles.

Therefore

4. If he openly states he didn't come to die for Gentiles, then, and this is critical: his mission had nothing to do with redeeming mankind, but only getting the lost Jews of the house of Israel back on track to a proper way of thinking.

Therefore

5. This would make the belief of Jesus being the Son of God coming to earth to die a horrible death as an atonement for the sins of mankind completely bogus since Jesus clearly states he came to give his life a ransom for "many", not everyone.

Don't shoot the messenger, folks. You have it in Jesus own words his mission was to a select few, not to redeem or be an atonement for all of mankind.
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Old 08-13-2015, 01:27 PM
 
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Statements which appear to be true, can also be misleading.
It never rains, but it pours on the just and unjust alike.

He did not come but unto, just unto, or only to those who were lost.
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Old 08-13-2015, 01:33 PM
 
19,952 posts, read 12,976,072 times
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* sigh *

I'd respond in detail, but I honestly doubt it would do any good.
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Old 08-13-2015, 01:39 PM
 
17,742 posts, read 8,879,421 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Statements which appear to be true, can also be misleading.
It never rains, but it pours on the just and unjust alike.

He did not come but unto, just unto, or only to those who were lost.
In other words, he was sent to open the hearts and minds of humanity - for there was no reason to fear.
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Old 08-13-2015, 01:46 PM
 
17,742 posts, read 8,879,421 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
* sigh *

I'd respond in detail, but I honestly doubt it would do any good.
If you fear death or your supposed "eternal destination."
Then, I doubt that it would be accurate to begin with?
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Old 08-13-2015, 01:56 PM
 
10,183 posts, read 10,549,080 times
Reputation: 3018
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
* sigh *

I'd respond in detail, but I honestly doubt it would do any good.
Jesus' own words, pastor, not mine. If Jesus is saying something contrary to that then at best it is one of the many contradictions, such as "I came to bring peace" vs. "I came not to bring peace but a sword" and then we get into that tiresome business of "Context, context, context". Unless you can point out any place in the gospels where Jesus says, "Now go and preach to the Gentiles". Don't use Mark 16:15---that's a proven interpolation added centuries later.
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Old 08-13-2015, 02:18 PM
 
7,860 posts, read 6,668,091 times
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See this was the calling of Jesus by Father God to spend His time with Israel, even though Jesus did make a trip to Sidon and Tyre who were not Jew and had many miracles there No one did repent or had any intelligence to repent to God and Jesus condemned these people ........................... See God had a plan to evangelize the Jews first as they were face a total rejection of their religion to become Christians , so the religious spirit which is not of God would resist to the very end and did for masses of people ...................... See the Jews were already saved if they seek God with compassion and had a faith in God so Jesus was not needed to saved them ....................... But in this time line before the cross not was known of God plan and the cross of Christ is actually what saved the Jews before the cross came for 2 thousand years before the cross of Christ as they where save of a shadow of the messiah to come which was Jesus on the cross for the judgment of God ................. It was the Apostles of Jesus who where called by God to the ends of the earth to save all people , as the judgment of the cross of Christ paid the price to save all men and women ...................... See Jesus meet a Samaritan women in John 4:1-26, as Jesus told the woman the five husband you have lost is the baal god , and the husband you have now Is the God of the Jews is not your husband , which is alien to the foreigner in the land of the Jews , Jesus said a time is come when all will worship to Lord in spirit and in truth ................... That's it the husband of this woman is the God of Jesus , not what is preached in most circles , as they worship this husband
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Old 08-13-2015, 02:29 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
13,292 posts, read 4,246,425 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
It's not hard to see that Jesus, if you read his words carefully, did not consider his death to be an atonement for the sins of all mankind. That was a later wrinkle added to all the man-made theological baggage that shaped the doctrine of Christianity. Here are Jesus' own words proving he did not come to save all men:

1. Then Jesus said, “I was not sent except to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15:24).

2. He expressly told them, “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the "lost sheep of the house of IsraelMatthew 10:6

Yet a second time Jesus is stating his mission is to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" and no one else.

3. He replied, "It is not right to take the children's [lost sheep of the house of Israel] bread and toss it to the dogs. [Gentiles]" Matthew 15:26

4. "For the Son of Man came to give his life as a ransom for "many"." Mark 10:45


So in at least four places in the scriptures Jesus makes it plain his mission is to the Jews, and not even ALL the Jews but only to the lost ones. This would lead to several conclusions:

1. His purpose for coming wasn't to save all Jews, only the lost ones

Therefore:

2. He wasn't send to anyone outside the house of Israel

Therefore

3. If he openly states he has no mission to anyone other than the lost sheep of Israel, he is saying he has no mission or duty to benefit Gentiles in any way, shape or form

Therefore

4. Jesus admits, per Mark's "many" he didn't come to "give his life a ransom" for Gentiles.

Therefore

4. If he openly states he didn't come to die for Gentiles, then, and this is critical: his mission had nothing to do with redeeming mankind, but only getting the lost Jews of the house of Israel back on track to a proper way of thinking.

Therefore

5. This would make the belief of Jesus being the Son of God coming to earth to die a horrible death as an atonement for the sins of mankind completely bogus since Jesus clearly states he came to give his life a ransom for "many", not everyone.

Don't shoot the messenger, folks. You have it in Jesus own words his mission was to a select few, not to redeem or be an atonement for all of mankind.

Ten tribes were exiled into the nations where they became gentiles, but Hosea showing an end to their kingdom also gives a promise to these lost sheep of Israel. Hosea promises them a marriage of redemption after they had become gentiles, and the land of Joseph where people dwell in darkness, in Galilee of the nations a light was seen to those who sit in darkness.

Their promise is that a Jew would come and marry them in a marriage of redemption that redeems them back into Israel. So there is no covenant for gentiles, but to the lost gentiles of the Northern kingdom, an open door.

The covenant is only for Judah and Ephraim, and God promises to make them one, not Judah and gentiles, but Judah and the lost gentiles of Israel.

At Pentecost, the spirit was sent into Galilee of the nations.

The Great Commission
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”



But I don't think this is as broad as people think, Jesus was an example of a Jew being human, and the only reason he says stuff like, '' eat of my flesh,'' is because after the Passover all the priest were symbolized as Passover lambs and a first born son had to have a redeemer to stand in his stead, and so any priest could have said,'' Eat of my flesh,'' in symbolism of eating the Passover lamb.

Did Jesus also make sacrifices for himself?

Yes, he did.


This is Passover happening, Sukkot happening, Shavuot happening, and Yom Kippur happening all on the same day.

A bull has ever been sacrificed on Nisan 14 except if you consider that Jesus did.


Ezekiel 45

[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.
And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin offering.

But this prophesy of all the feast days happening on Passover shows the prince preparing a sin offering not just for the people, but also for himself.

I think Jesus just did what any Jew is supposed to do, to stand and redeem people into Israel. And that he is an example of a good sacrifice as many other disciples were also called a sweet aroma, an acceptable offering to God.
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Old 08-13-2015, 02:40 PM
 
4,064 posts, read 1,455,780 times
Reputation: 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
It's not hard to see that Jesus, if you read his words carefully, did not consider his death to be an atonement for the sins of all mankind. That was a later wrinkle added to all the man-made theological baggage that shaped the doctrine of Christianity. Here are Jesus' own words proving he did not come to save all men:

1. Then Jesus said, “I was not sent except to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15:24).

2. He expressly told them, “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the "lost sheep of the house of IsraelMatthew 10:6

Yet a second time Jesus is stating his mission is to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" and no one else.

3. He replied, "It is not right to take the children's [lost sheep of the house of Israel] bread and toss it to the dogs. [Gentiles]" Matthew 15:26

4. "For the Son of Man came to give his life as a ransom for "many"." Mark 10:45


So in at least four places in the scriptures Jesus makes it plain his mission is to the Jews, and not even ALL the Jews but only to the lost ones. This would lead to several conclusions:

1. His purpose for coming wasn't to save all Jews, only the lost ones

Therefore:

2. He wasn't send to anyone outside the house of Israel

Therefore

3. If he openly states he has no mission to anyone other than the lost sheep of Israel, he is saying he has no mission or duty to benefit Gentiles in any way, shape or form

Therefore

4. Jesus admits, per Mark's "many" he didn't come to "give his life a ransom" for Gentiles.

Therefore

4. If he openly states he didn't come to die for Gentiles, then, and this is critical: his mission had nothing to do with redeeming mankind, but only getting the lost Jews of the house of Israel back on track to a proper way of thinking.

Therefore

5. This would make the belief of Jesus being the Son of God coming to earth to die a horrible death as an atonement for the sins of mankind completely bogus since Jesus clearly states he came to give his life a ransom for "many", not everyone.

Don't shoot the messenger, folks. You have it in Jesus own words his mission was to a select few, not to redeem or be an atonement for all of mankind.


This statement ( The wages sin pays is death)made in Gods word proves Jesus' death only covers those anointed who go to heaven during the tribulation and those who are brought through Harmageddon on earth. These will never taste death.
Even the apostles all died and paid the wages of their own sins. Mary died and paid the wages of her own sins. ever since then all that have died have paid the wages of their own sins.
Yes Jesus came to try to save Israel( Gods chosen at the time)--they rejected him and thus were cut off of being Gods chosen after they sent him to his death out of hatred in their hearts, to this day they reject him)( Matt 23:37,38)--They( true followers, knocking on doors with the good news of Jesus and of Gods kingdom) were sent out to the gentiles after that.
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Old 08-13-2015, 02:41 PM
 
19,952 posts, read 12,976,072 times
Reputation: 1957
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Jesus' own words, pastor, not mine. If Jesus is saying something contrary to that then at best it is one of the many contradictions, such as "I came to bring peace" vs. "I came not to bring peace but a sword" and then we get into that tiresome business of "Context, context, context". Unless you can point out any place in the gospels where Jesus says, "Now go and preach to the Gentiles". Don't use Mark 16:15---that's a proven interpolation added centuries later.
Have you ever read the book of Acts? God explicitly ordered Peter to go preach to the Gentiles. Jesus commissioned Paul to go do so.

Also, are you familiar with the miracles Jesus did to heal Gentiles? Or when he commended the woman when she correctly asserted that he was there for the Jews, but even the Gentiles should benefit, since the dogs eat the crumbs that fall off the master's table? Or when he met the Samaritan (half-Gentile) woman at the well?
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