Is Jesus God or Son of God ? (crucified, scriptures, Moses)

[SeekerSA]

Originally Posted by 4Pillars

IOW, you don't know the name of the Father, correct?

Yes I do Abba aka Daddy. See I have met Him and I know His Heart and it is full of Unconditional Love.

And if you do, then tell us whose Son is the Christ? (David's Lord in the OT)

Mathew 22
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? Whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

God Bless

See Jesus and Christ are not the same, it is Christ that pre-existed, not Jesus. Notice too who Jesus is talking to. Them folk were looking for an earthly Davidic replacement king. Read John 7 and John 12, pay attention to what some of the Jews say about Christ, its the same in the KJV.

Blessings

[4Pillars]

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

Yes I do Abba aka Daddy. See I have met Him and I know His Heart and it is full of Unconditional Love.

See Jesus and Christ are not the same, it is Christ that pre-existed, not Jesus. Notice too who Jesus is talking to. Them folk were looking for an earthly Davidic replacement king. Read John 7 and John 12, pay attention to what some of the Jews say about Christ, its the same in the KJV.

Blessings

Perhaps, you really did not understand the question that was asked of you before. Allow me to post it again. I suggest that you read it very slowly this time around -- taking away your pre-conceived notion for the meantime....

Matthew 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, v42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? Whose son is he?

And for the sake of clarification on where you actually stand and affirm you belief, please answer this question... Who do you believe the "God Father" is based on your religious view... Multiple Choice:

a) Jehovah / YHWH

b) Jesus

c) I don't know.


Thanks

[spm62]

All we have to do is believe scripture. Don`t add anything to it,so it will say what we`ve been taught. Just believe what it says.

For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).

"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS, and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).

How many God`s does the above verse say there is....ONE
Who is that God according to the above scripture.....THE FATHER
How many LORDS............................................. ......ONE
Who is that LORD.............................................. ...JESUS CHRIST

For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

"...I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28).

Is someone greater than Jesus? Who?....THE FATHER
Does it say they are equal? NO,NO,and NO. So why do people say they are equal or one in the same? 3 in one..all part of a Godhead? I know, we can`t reconcile these verses so we make up something like..they are the same person but different in rank or authority? HUH?Because that is what we have been taught. People don`t know what to do with scriptures like these because it goes against their doctrine. So,what do they do? Change their doctrine so it aligns with scripture...NO. They add to the scripture or spin it so they can continue to keep their doctrine. `My doctrine can`t be wrong. The church can`t be wrong. My sunday school teacher can`t be wrong because I know he`s a well learned intelligent man, so I must not be reading the scripture right. It must not mean exactly what it says. It must mean something else because my church says there is a trinity. So they go back to the ...I and my father are one passage and say... it says it right here..they are one. That must mean one and the same exact person. Eventhough there is scripture after scripture that says otherwise. Does the father and I are one passage say they are one and the same person? No? But some believe it. Does God`s word say the Jesus Christ had a God..yes. But some don`t believe that. That`s very interesting to me.
If you believe in the... I and my father are one passage...Jesus is saying they are the same person, Then do you believe that all of the disciples are one and the same person? Jesus told them he wanted them to be one as he and the father are one. So since Jesus is telling them to be one LIKE he and the father are,and you believe that means the exact same person..you must believe that the disciples are really the same exact person...correct? Can someone who believes that Jesus is God the Father explain the verse about the disciples being one in the same manner and why you believe that means something different?
We must,We must,We must ..shape our doctrine around scripture and not shape the scripture to fit our doctrine! I`m amazed how many people do that. I`m not judging a person`s intent or salvation or anything else. I`m just amazed how people even when confronted by scripture just can not change their (as someone else said) taughtology. That goes to show you how much we are shaped by the people around us and the teachings that are drilled into us.

[SeekerSA]

Originally Posted by 4Pillars

Perhaps, you really did not understand the question

And for the sake of clarification on where you actually stand and affirm you belief, please answer this question... Who do you believe the "God Father" is based on your religious view... Multiple Choice:

btw I am not religious.

Perhaps you did not understand the answers I gave

Read Post #19 S l o w l y

Then you make an assumption and asked two more questions

Read Post #21 even s l o w e r

Then after this, if you wish, you can ask yourself (multiple choice)

1. I am slow on the uptake
2. I do not understand
3. I have preconceived Ideas
4. I think I am clever
5. I do not respect what others share
6. I may be wrong
7. Others are allowed to see differently from me
8. All of these
9. None of these

See, ad hominem attacks and sarcasm are easy, even I can do it.

The OP asks Is Jesus God or Son of God ?

not

Is the POV of 4pillars correct

Blessings

[4Pillars]

Translation: SeekerSA = I am affraid to take a stand because I might get expose of my own doctrinal errors. Therefore, I have to be really slick about it.

I understand your predicament SeekerSA, however, next time, you should not be so critical of other's belief - example like the "trinity" - and expect them to believe you.

Matthew 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, v42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? Whose son is he?

And for the sake of clarification on where I actually stand and affirm my belief, I will answer my own question - Who I believe the "God Father" is -- based on my own religious view... Multiple Choice:

(a) Jehovah / YHWH.... (b) Jesus..... (c) I don't know.

As far as I am concerned, my answer is letter (C), because, Jesus is Jehovah himself - the Son of the invisible God - who was sent into this world to save us. Jesus existed before the world was. Jesus is thy Maker, our God. Scriptures also document us that NO man knew of the Name of the "Father" at this time -- until one overcometh the end.

Read and learn...

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. v13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

See, I myself don't know the NAME of the invisible God Father, therefore, you should not take the question above as an ad hominem attack or sarcasm. Shame on you.

God Bless

[SeekerSA]

Originally Posted by 4Pillars

Translation: SeekerSA = I am affraid to take a stand because I might get expose of my own doctrinal errors. Therefore, I have to be really slick about it.

I understand your predicament SeekerSA, however, next time, you should not be so critical of other's belief - example like the "trinity" - and expect them to believe you.

Matthew 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, v42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? Whose son is he?

And for the sake of clarification on where I actually stand and affirm my belief, I will answer my own question - Who I believe the "God Father" is -- based on my own religious view... Multiple Choice:

(a) Jehovah / YHWH.... (b) Jesus..... (c) I don't know.

As far as I am concerned, my answer is letter (C), because, Jesus is Jehovah himself - the Son of the invisible God - who was sent into this world to save us. Jesus existed before the world was. Jesus is thy Maker, our God. Scriptures also document us that NO man knew of the Name of the "Father" at this time -- until one overcometh the end.

See, I myself don't know the NAME of the invisible God Father, therefore, you should not take the question above as an ad hominem attack or sarcasm. Shame on you.

God Bless

Nope I am not afraid to take a stand. I do not believe Jesus is God and I have explained why. I also explained that Jesus and Christ to me are not the same and I have stated many times, Jesus (the) Christ describes the Son of God.

The Father I call Abba is adequate for me as He knows when I talk to Him. The Jews had a whole lot of names for him.

If you need to see a triangle of sorts, makes you see somethings clearer, that is OK. I do not see it necessary and yes I know the origins of the doctrine. In fact, my belief was not influenced by what I learned later, but rather confirmed what I already believed. Believe me, I have debated this many, many times.

In fact when I got "saved", the 1st bible I bought was not the standard of the church I was attending. My cell leader, looked at it, turned to 1 John 5 and checked for the "and these three are one" was there. When I asked him why this was important, he had no answer, well what he thought I would accept I did not. He never made an issue of it. Curious, I brought this up many times as I just did not see it, after getting the said standard bible, it showed what I have shared that the text is not in the earlier manuscripts. The pastor who has a doctorate could not answer satisfactory.

I always wondered why this was a tenant of faith, kinda like "it is this big mystery and you MUST believe it" but no one has any logical answers.

You will find, the way I share, I pose many questions in my posts.

Oh well, maybe in time we can find common ground in some things, who knows.

Thank you for explaining your angle, perhaps I misunderstood your intent, but that does not change my POV.

Blessings

[4Pillars]

The God of the Old Testament is the same God we have in the New Testament. Our God (Son) -- Jesus Christ -- is the same yesterday, today and will be in the future.

Look and read

Isaiah 54:5 For thy MAKER is thine HUSBAND; the LORD of hosts is his name; and Redeemer Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her HUSBAND. v9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

God Bless

[shibainu]

Jesus is a man that believed in God

[4Pillars]

Jehovah is the 2nd Man from heaven -- the Christ -- who believe and obedient to his Father' will. His glory is brighter than the noon day sun.

God Bless

[SeekerSA]

Originally Posted by 4Pillars

The God of the Old Testament is the same God we have in the New Testament. Our God (Son) -- Jesus Christ -- is the same yesterday, today and will be in the future.

I agree with the red part. I just say the Jews misrepresented Him/never really understood Him/His nature. Their POV was from a man's perspective.

Look and read

Isaiah 54:5 For thy MAKER is thine HUSBAND; the LORD of hosts is his name; and Redeemer Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her HUSBAND. v9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

God Bless

At best, this is a stretch, I see the link you make yet the Jews knew only of Jehovah. The only link is the HUSBAND. It does not prove Jesus is God.

Another example:
The 4 beasts of revelation are also cross linked to the beasts of Rev 4:8 to Isa 6:2-3 and the link is six wings yet a seraphim is a fiery snake and the 4 beasts of revelation are individually described, the second link is the 3 holy's

Seraphim of Isaiah
H8314 שׂרף śârâph saw-rawf'
From H8313; burning, that is, (figuratively) poisonous (serpent); specifically a saraph or symbolical creature (from their copper color): - fiery (serpent), seraph.

Beasts of John
G2226 ζωον zōon dzo'-on
Neuter of a derivative of G2198; a live thing, that is, an animal: - beast.

This misconception is further amplified in the song holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty. (most of us learned this at an early age)

There is a verse in the song Cherubim and seraphim falling down before Thee

Nowhere in the bible are these creatures mentioned in the same verse let alone the same chapter.

Sorry for the diversion but this comes from the centre margin cross reference of Revelation 4:8 in the KJV. Most accept the links as if they are 100% correct.

Even some of the alleged prophesies of Jesus in the OT are questionable as they are starred and cross referenced in the bible.

Jehovah is the 2nd Man from heaven -- the Christ -- who believe and obedient to his Father' will.

In your last post, I do not understand what you mean in the red part.

Blessings