Is Jesus God or Son of God ? (churches, gnostic, beliefs)

[SeekerSA]

Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA

There very verse you quoted Mark 10:18 to me proves He is God, "do you really know the one to whom you are talking, because only God is truly good, the man was calling Jesus God whether he realized it or not. I am amazed that Christians can read John 10:30 where Jesus said The Father and I are one and not realized His claim to be God is unmistakable.
I do not believe the disciples are the same person either, not sure where you got that from. But I do believe the Bible is very clear that Jesus is God. This is why He was crucified. But you're are probably not going to change your thoughts and I know I'm not. I respect what you believe.

The bolded part. The Father was living His nature/Spirit 100% through Jesus in the flesh. I can also say "I and the Father are one" and mean it exactly the way Jesus said it, of one mind, of one accord.

"If you have seen me you have seen the Father" is another favourite proof text and that does not mean Jesus was the Father. He was showing/telling them exactly what the Father was, like most, they wanted to see the Father physically.

The mind cannot comprehend something invisible. Even today, no one really has a clue what Jesus looked like. All the paintings suggest a European type Jesus yet it was more likely He was dark skinned with curly hair. The brain needs an image to store.

In fact the trinity doctrine follows that God sacrificed Himself to Himself to protect us from Himself.

If you want to study the origins of the trinity, read this:

A PATRISTIC STUDY OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD AND THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE TRINITY

It is a horrible layout and have it republished elsewhere (with permission) in a more readable font, DM me and I will provide the link.

Blessings

[SeekerSA]

Originally Posted by 4Pillars

No man has seen the Almighty God Father -- the Invisible Spirit of Love -- but Moses, Ezekiel as well as Shadrack, Meshesh, and Abednigo, who were with the LORD God in the fiery furnace, will tell you they saw Jesus for He is the Only Begotten Image of the Invisible Spirit of God. His Image is that of a man Glorified, whose Glory is Brighter than the Noonday Sun.

Jesus or Jehovah has always had fingers, even when He appeared to Ezekiel. Remember that the LORD God is Jesus, the Christ.

And it came to pass in the sixth year, in the sixth [month], in the fifth [day] of the month, [as] I sat in mine house, and the elders of Judah sat before me, that the hand of the Lord GOD fell there upon me. Then I beheld, and lo a likeness as the appearance of fire: from the appearance of His loins even downward, fire; and from His loins even upward, as the appearance of brightness, as the colour of amber. And He put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven,…… Eze 8:1-3
God Bless

Still does not prove Jesus is God. Someone once said when they looked at my earthly father the love of Jesus shined through His face. That does not make my father Jesus anymore than when Jesus used similar metaphors.

Jesus said, "believe on Me and the Father who sent me". The whole trinity myth resides on a few select texts and ignores all others where Jesus defers to/acknowledges the Father.

All that the trinity doctrine has done is make Jesus equal and unattainable as the Father was in the Jew's religion. I essence, the focus is diverted from the Father to the cross and that is pretty much where most folk stop.

The cross is the doorWAY to the Father as was Jesus' teachings. In fact the trinity diverts many away from the teachings and glories only in the cross, an event of profound proportions, and maybe 1-2 days of suffering of a 3-1/2 year ministry and His subsequent resurrection and Ascension. Most worship the door or the pathWAY and not the One at the destination.

I still believe in Jesus the Christ, I still believe He died on a Roman cross, I still believe that He was resurrected, I still believe He ascended to heaven. I just do not believe He is God/Father.

Jesus
G2424 Ιησους I ēsous ee-ay-sooce'
Of Hebrew origin [H3091]; Jesus (that is, Jehoshua), the name of our Lord and two (three) other Israelites: - Jesus[SIZE=3].[/SIZE]

Christ
G5547 Χριστός Christos khris-tos'
From G5548; anointed, that is, the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus: - Christ.

Jesus (the) Christ = Jesus (the) Anointed/Messiah

Christ in us = Anointed/Messiah in us or we are anointed.

I guess most folk are afraid of letting go of the dogma of the trinity fearing somehow they may lose their salvation when ironically salvation was a gift in the first place and secondly gifts are irrevocable aka not taken back. Also Ironic is nowhere in the bible are we told to believe in a trinity for salvation.

Jesus also said if you do not believe Me, believe the works I do. Do we worship His works? No! We talk/boast about them. Likewise we can still boast of Jesus and worship the Father. Maybe some folk fear that they have been worshiping the wrong person but just like Jesus did when folk gave Him honor on earth, He will defer/pass it onto the Father.

Even in revelation He (Jesus) takes the scroll from the One sitting upon the throne (Father), btw the throne is in your heart not some pie in the sky somewhere, we are the temple(s) now.

I can best sum it up that both the Spirit of Jesus and the Spirit of the Father aka Holy Spirit dwell within my heart.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, If a man loves Me, he will keep My Word. And My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

We not I, not It, not He, not Me.

Blessings

[4Pillars]

Daniel 3:23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fieryfurnace. v24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. v25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

I guess, in a way, king Nebuchadnezzar must be well informed person and not a willingly ignorant of the knowledge of the existence of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, during the time of old -- before the New Testament.

God Bless

[simpleton]

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

The bolded part. The Father was living His nature/Spirit 100% through Jesus in the flesh. I can also say "I and the Father are one" and mean it exactly the way Jesus said it, of one mind, of one accord.

"If you have seen me you have seen the Father" is another favourite proof text and that does not mean Jesus was the Father. He was showing/telling them exactly what the Father was, like most, they wanted to see the Father physically.

The mind cannot comprehend something invisible. Even today, no one really has a clue what Jesus looked like. All the paintings suggest a European type Jesus yet it was more likely He was dark skinned with curly hair. The brain needs an image to store.

In fact the trinity doctrine follows that God sacrificed Himself to Himself to protect us from Himself.

If you want to study the origins of the trinity, read this:

A PATRISTIC STUDY OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD AND THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE TRINITY

It is a horrible layout and have it republished elsewhere (with permission) in a more readable font, DM me and I will provide the link.

Blessings

I think the main difference here is people taking the verse of "Let them be one, as we were one" out of context. Jesus was/is one with the Father from the beginning, we become one with the Father through having faith in Christ. This signifies a distinct difference between Christ and us. We become one or "born of the spirit" through Christ, not through our own merit or abilities.

When we speak, we speak with "In Jesus's name" due to the fact that we're acknowledging that our only connection to the Father is through Jesus. So again, we are not exactly like Christ as we cannot claim oneness with the Father without Jesus. When we do accept Christ into our lives, we can have the same oneness with the Father as Christ has.

[SeekerSA]

Originally Posted by 4Pillars

Daniel 3:23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fieryfurnace. v24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. v25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

I guess, in a way, king Nebuchadnezzar must be well informed person and not a willingly ignorant of the knowledge of the existence of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, during the time of old -- before the New Testament.

God Bless

I really have no problem whatsoever seeing Jesus as the Son of God, never denied it. So too are we sons/daughters of God and Jesus is our brother. Not sure if I said it here, but Christ was that which pre-existed. Many see it this way too, just they do not realise when they say it. (see next post)

Blessings

[SeekerSA]

Originally Posted by simpleton

I think the main difference here is people taking the verse of "Let them be one, as we were one" out of context. Jesus was/is one with the Father from the beginning, we become one with the Father through having faith in Christ. This signifies a distinct difference between Christ and us. We become one or "born of the spirit" through Christ, not through our own merit or abilities.

When we speak, we speak with "In Jesus's name" due to the fact that we're acknowledging that our only connection to the Father is through Jesus. So again, we are not exactly like Christ as we cannot claim oneness with the Father without Jesus. When we do accept Christ into our lives, we can have the same oneness with the Father as Christ has.

Just highlighted to make a point. I agree. We pray to the Father (usually) and close off with "in Jesus' name."

I would not say our connection is only via Jesus, maybe semantics, Jesus is the doorWAY to the Father and yes we enter in via that doorWAY. Once we discover the Father, we should reside there or we should realise He resides in our hearts and is accessible 24/7.

I guess we agree, word fail us sometimes.

Folk, if believing in the trinity doctrine is hyper-critical to you, go for it. I have just seen a whole more depth w/o the trinity in scripture and I am far from there yet. I was maybe fortunate that the faith I grew up in, did not make a major issue about it, it was not a paramount requirement.

What I do not believe in is this:



Blessings

[Alpha8207]

Jesus is God.

Jesus is the Son of God.

If that doesn't make sense and you can't comprehend that, it means you are not God.

Just kidding (kinda)

Seriously, we have multiple gospels and multiple scriptures to show us multiple facets of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

SeekerSa, I really like that diagram you posted that you don't believe.

[godofthunder]

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

Just highlighted to make a point. I agree. We pray to the Father (usually) and close off with "in Jesus' name."

I would not say our connection is only via Jesus, maybe semantics, Jesus is the doorWAY to the Father and yes we enter in via that doorWAY. Once we discover the Father, we should reside there or we should realise He resides in our hearts and is accessible 24/7.

I guess we agree, word fail us sometimes.

Folk, if believing in the trinity doctrine is hyper-critical to you, go for it. I have just seen a whole more depth w/o the trinity in scripture and I am far from there yet. I was maybe fortunate that the faith I grew up in, did not make a major issue about it, it was not a paramount requirement.

What I do not believe in is this:



Blessings

In my experience, the VAST MAJORITY of Christians do not know that they believe in the Trinity. That is to say, they don't understand the Trinity Doctrine. Most likely, they were so thoroughly confused in that particular Sunday School lesson that they just tuned it out when they were kids. Like most, they didn't get to deeply into their religion as life progressed. They just go to church and let the minister's message inspire them and make them feel spiritual, then go on about the rest of their week.

Many such people seemed to think I was nuts when I explained, "Oh, you say you're Methodist? Your religion accepts this concept about God." Most ordinary folk either don't know they are supposed to believe in the Trinitarian Doctrine or they never worry about it.

[Michelle1210]

It is confusing when you try to think it thru , however my pastor told me to just pray and ask God to reveal who is to you....and you know what that is the best advice I ever recieved, becasue you just cant explain it.

[gypsydoc]

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

I would love to hear how at Jesus' baptism and at the transfiguration on the mount the Father is separate.

Then explain how Jesus sits at the right hand side of Himself.

Then explain for those that believe in the virgin birth how the Holy Spirit does the deed and conceives Jesus.

Do not just defer to trinity (a myth) and Omnipresence.

Explain the difference in Son of man and Son of God.

Explain who the early church baptised in the name of.

Explain then why Jesus taught us to pray to the Father and not to Himself.

BTW regarding angels worshipping Him.

G32 αγγελος aggelos ang'-el-os
From αγγέλλω aggellō (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger.

In Greek, there is use of articles... "a" and "the" to denote importance... In translating to English, that part of the translation is lost.
So, consider... Jesus is "a" god, the first fruit of many... There is only one unoriginated God, the Father. Because Christ was begotten, he had a beginning. His Father has no beginning. Everything made was through Christ Jesus...

Jesus is the mediator to help bring humanity to his Father. Christ is not the destination - He is the Way to God, the destination. They are two separate beings.