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Do you know that we were not with the Father in the begining, because there is scripture that refutes that.
And Jesus, was He a created being?
Prov 8:22-8:27 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
This passage answers both of the questions above, as it is Wisdom speaking, who represents the Personnage of Christ in the above passage. All of this meaning of course Christ is not a created being, and the sons of God did not exist at the beginning of creation. God existed with wisdom(Christ or the Word of God) from the very beginning, before both the heavens and the earth were created.
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That is not very nice. You misunderstand what I am saying, and then call me Satan? Whats that about?
I made a reference to your testimony being in line with that of the serpent's in Genesis. I didn't call you anything.
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Again, mis understanding.... The problem was with the Hebrews, do you remember why they received the law, rather than be destroyed?
What I said was, the law made nothing perfect (thats in the bible), is was a lesser teaching than they had hoped for, before the golden calf worship.
There is nothing wrong with the Law. It was given to demonstrate the Character of God to man, as well as to show man what being Loving meant. The Law was not lessened by Christ's coming, it was magnafied and demonstrated to be fully Loving through the sacrafice of Christ, as well as demonstrated the Holiness of God's character.
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So if Moses had not petitioned God to spare them, then there would have been the same outcome? What do you base this opinion on? Do you think that we have no effect on this school, this sphere of existence, that we are all pre programmed outcomes. I think the knowledge of free will and choice would have contentions with that..
Refer to Psalm 139. God knows all things.
My point was that Moses's intercession was already known by God to begin with. And God's mercy existed before Moses's intercession. Moses didn't bring about God's mercy, God did as he had pre-planned for Moses to intercede when he did.
Prov 8:22-8:27 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
And Jesus was chosen from the foundations of the earth, if chosen then there were others that participated, and others that were not chosen.
Many are called, few are chosen...
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This passage answers both of the questions above, as it is Wisdom speaking, who represents the Personnage of Christ in the above passage. All of this meaning of course Christ is not a created being, and the sons of God did not exist at the beginning of creation. God existed with wisdom(Christ or the Word of God) from the very beginning, before both the heavens and the earth were created.
Job 38:4 ¶ Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
It appears the sons of God were there, they in fact shouted for joy. Job was being rebuked for not parting the veil and remembering.
As well, how do names get written in a book (the book of life), before they exist? Doesn't sound like our God of order names things then makes them, Genesis in fact states that creation happens and then the names. As it was given to Adam to name all creatures and plants etc....
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I made a reference to your testimony being in line with that of the serpent's in Genesis. I didn't call you anything.
And if you believe it was my testimony (your interpretation) then what are you saying I AM ? I forgive you...
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There is nothing wrong with the Law. It was given to demonstrate the Character of God to man, as well as to show man what being Loving meant. The Law was not lessened by Christ's coming, it was magnafied and demonstrated to be fully Loving through the sacrafice of Christ, as well as demonstrated the Holiness of God's character.
The law is the lesser, Christ came and brought the promises.
If thine eye be single, ye shall be filled. Even with the very fulness of God, that is His ultimate gift, that we be one with Him, do you think that God does not want His sons and daughters to be like Him?
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus, who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God.
Jesus did not want to be above God as Satan did (his stars above the most high), He desired to be as His Father, One with Him. That is the higher message of Jesus.
Not to muddle about life, not learning and growing. Feigning false humility, and pretense of nothingness. We are more than conquerors through Christ, not weak and insignificants waiting to die and go to heaven....
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Refer to Psalm 139. God knows all things.
My point was that Moses's intercession was already known by God to begin with. And God's mercy existed before Moses's intercession. Moses didn't bring about God's mercy, God did as he had pre-planned for Moses to intercede when he did.
Again if Moses had not petitioned, there would have been a different outcome, we matter in the process of salvation and the divine nature, to lay it all on a misinterpretation of pre-destiny, is not what He taught, it is what modern day churches teach in order to put butts in seats, and have power over the minds of the customers.
And Jesus was chosen from the foundations of the earth, if chosen then there were others that participated, and others that were not chosen.
Many are called, few are chosen...
Prov 8:22-8:27 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
How does "beginning of his way" - in anyway insinuate Christ that he was "chosen from the foundations of the earth"?
Again, that sounds like one is likening Christ once again to a created being, particularly using the "chosen from earth" reference. Simply put once again, Jesus was there at the beginning with the Father, and he will be there at the end with the Father. Your own quote from Job even further proves my case, as God himself asks Job
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Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
If Job was with God as a "son of God" during the creation account as you've put it, why would God question Job about his knowledge about the "foundation of earth"? Or where Job was when he laid the "foundation of earth."
Regarding the "sons of God" reference, they actually represent Angels in the passage above, not men. Angels were indeed present at the onset of the forming of earth, but not during the formation of the Heavens. This is pretty frankly stated in the Proverb 8:27, when it mentions only Wisdom(Christ) being with God when he created the heavens, not the "sons of God"
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The law is the lesser, Christ came and brought the promises.
If thine eye be single, ye shall be filled. Even with the very fulness of God, that is His ultimate gift, that we be one with Him, do you think that God does not want His sons and daughters to be like Him?
I'm sure he wants us to be one with him in character - That's why I believe he presented us with the law. There's nothing lesser about God or the Law as it is now within our hearts, and is fulfilled with completely in the personnage of Christ. Regarding the equality thing you seem to be so hung up on, we're not going to be exactly like the Lord in Heaven from an authoratative standpoint. Heaven has a social structure to it, why do you think there are some who will be greater in Heaven, and some that will be least?
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Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus, who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God.
Jesus did not want to be above God as Satan did (his stars above the most high), He desired to be as His Father, One with Him. That is the higher message of Jesus.
Not to muddle about life, not learning and growing. Feigning false humility, and pretense of nothingness. We are more than conquerors through Christ, not weak and insignificants waiting to die and go to heaven....
The verse you posted was Philippians 2:6 KJV version. It gives the impression based on its use of old English, that Jesus wanted to be equal to God. This is obviously not the case. That's what Satan wanted. I think the English standard version of the text actually gives a better translation/meaning of what is meant.
Philippians 2:6 who, existing in the form of God, didn't consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,
The rest of what you posted I think has been responded to fairly sufficiently, so I see no further need to extrapolate on what's already been stated. That being said, I think I'll sign out on this discussion.
Last edited by simpleton; 01-30-2008 at 01:31 PM..
Reason: clarification..:)
Prov 8:22-8:27 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
This passage answers both of the questions above, as it is Wisdom speaking, who represents the Personnage of Christ in the above passage. All of this meaning of course Christ is not a created being, and the sons of God did not exist at the beginning of creation. God existed with wisdom(Christ or the Word of God) from the very beginning, before both the heavens and the earth were created.
Did you read the verse you quoted carefully? When there was no depth and no sea,hills,water,before the earth and and before the fields what happened?
col 1:14 Who is the image of the invisible God,Firstborn of every creature....
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God did as he had pre-planned for Moses to intercede when he did.
Prov 8:22-8:27 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
How does "beginning of his way" - in anyway insinuate Christ that he was "chosen from the foundations of the earth"?
1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
1Pe 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious.
1Pe 2:4 ¶ To whom coming, [as unto] a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, [and] precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
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Again, that sounds like one is likening Christ once again to a created being, particularly using the "chosen from earth" reference. Simply put once again, Jesus was there at the beginning with the Father, and he will be there at the end with the Father. Your own quote from Job even further proves my case, as God himself asks Job
As we all were.
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If Job was with God as a "son of God" during the creation account as you've put it, why would God question Job about his knowledge about the "foundation of earth"? Or where Job was when he laid the "foundation of earth."
Have you studied what the veil is, and how the veil is rent? God was instructing Job on his lack of persueing all righteousness, and how his fears had led him to his troubles. Job was most righteous, but he had a little way to go, in order to understand perfect love, lets say his focus on Mammon led to his concern of losing all he had, and therefore he left himself open to temptation and experiencing the power of fear.
"For what I have feared most, has come upon me." Fear being the absence of love, was the stumbling block. And it was a blessing for him to learn that. His eternal inheritance (JOY) was amplified.
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Regarding the "sons of God" reference, they actually represent Angels in the passage above, not men. Angels were indeed present at the onset of the forming of earth, but not during the formation of the Heavens. This is pretty frankly stated in the Proverb 8:27, when it mentions only Wisdom(Christ) being with God when he created the heavens, not the "sons of God"
And the morning stars? Hint: all are called angels before the become man/woman, and after they have been ressurected.
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I'm sure he wants us to be one with him in character - That's why I believe he presented us with the law. There's nothing lesser about God or the Law as it is now within our hearts, and is fulfilled with completely in the personnage of Christ. Regarding the equality thing you seem to be so hung up on, we're not going to be exactly like the Lord in Heaven from an authoratative standpoint. Heaven has a social structure to it, why do you think there are some who will be greater in Heaven, and some that will be least?
A fulness of the Father is far more than God wanting us to have the same Character. It is power, and understanding and wisdom. Fulness is a Fulness.
I understand that you have not been taught theses things, if you are a seeker, I would not dismiss them without prayer, and fasting...
You are the only one that can damn (stop) your own progress.
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The verse you posted was Philippians 2:6 KJV version. It gives the impression based on its use of old English, that Jesus wanted to be equal to God. This is obviously not the case. That's what Satan wanted. I think the English standard version of the text actually gives a better translation/meaning of what is meant.
Those are translations of scholars that thought temporally, not spiritually. They are doctrines of devils that the scriptures have warned about.
Jesus was certainly equal to His Father. "That is what oneness is about. If you have seen me, then you have seen my Father".
Do you think that God is in the least bit offended with His children being like Him? Do you think He has like egos that He needs to feel superior? No way.
His kingdom increases when His children inherit His Holiness, Righteousness.
Show me where Jesus said we were to not be like Him. I'll show you where He said, BE YE THEREFORE PERFECT EVEN AS OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN.
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Philippians 2:6 who, existing in the form of God, didn't consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Have you studied what the veil is, and how the veil is rent? God was instructing Job on his lack of persueing all righteousness, and how his fears had led him to his troubles. Job was most righteous, but he had a little way to go, in order to understand perfect love, lets say his focus on Mammon led to his concern of losing all he had, and therefore he left himself open to temptation and experiencing the power of fear.
"For what I have feared most, has come upon me." Fear being the absence of love, was the stumbling block. And it was a blessing for him to learn that. His eternal inheritance (JOY) was amplified.
good point..I haven`t thought of it this way before.
1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
1Pe 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious.
1Pe 2:4 ¶ To whom coming, [as unto] a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, [and] precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
As we all were.
Have you studied what the veil is, and how the veil is rent? God was instructing Job on his lack of persueing all righteousness, and how his fears had led him to his troubles. Job was most righteous, but he had a little way to go, in order to understand perfect love, lets say his focus on Mammon led to his concern of losing all he had, and therefore he left himself open to temptation and experiencing the power of fear.
"For what I have feared most, has come upon me." Fear being the absence of love, was the stumbling block. And it was a blessing for him to learn that. His eternal inheritance (JOY) was amplified.
And the morning stars? Hint: all are called angels before the become man/woman, and after they have been ressurected.
A fulness of the Father is far more than God wanting us to have the same Character. It is power, and understanding and wisdom. Fulness is a Fulness.
I understand that you have not been taught theses things, if you are a seeker, I would not dismiss them without prayer, and fasting...
You are the only one that can damn (stop) your own progress.
Those are translations of scholars that thought temporally, not spiritually. They are doctrines of devils that the scriptures have warned about.
Jesus was certainly equal to His Father. "That is what oneness is about. If you have seen me, then you have seen my Father".
Do you think that God is in the least bit offended with His children being like Him? Do you think He has like egos that He needs to feel superior? No way.
His kingdom increases when His children inherit His Holiness, Righteousness.
Show me where Jesus said we were to not be like Him. I'll show you where He said, BE YE THEREFORE PERFECT EVEN AS OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN.
good point..I haven`t thought of it this way before.
Thanks,
It was told to me years ago, and it has helped so much in understanding the process of grace and accountability.
Sacrafice and suffering on earth in order to step through eons of progression to God's kingdom. Nothing like a good object lesson.
Thine will be done "On earth as it is in heaven"..
In Christ, and through his human will, the will of the Father has been perfectly fulfilled once for all.
May I rephrase this a touch?
In Christ (the revelation of who the Father IS), and through his human will, the will of the Father has been perfectly fulfilled. (once for all.)
We claim to be in Christ or claim to have Christ in us right?
Jesus was the first of many sons, HE was the Firstborn.
The once for all needs to seen from the perspective of He did it so can we all rather than just once off.
Blessings
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