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Old 02-15-2008, 10:59 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,176,294 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder View Post
Twin.Spin, I'm going officially give up on wasting my time on the matter. You CANNOT prove the Trinitarian Doctrine to be 100% correct by the Bible alone. For every passage that seems to absolutely prove the Trinity Dogma correct, there are numerous passages that seem to absolutely disprove it.

What's the difference between one interpretation or the other? Pre-conceived notions. If you approach the Bible with the Trinitarian Doctrine firmly set in your mind, and you are completely closed to all other "truth" then the tendency is to simply disregard or explain away passages that seem to disprove what you "know to be true." It works equally well for the Dogma stating that there are three separate persons within the one "Godhead.
Take your "IMMENSELY SELF RIGHTEOUS" log out your eye first . You are completely closed to all the other "truths" as well. When the Bible seems to teach opposite views, it is not up to us to determine what parts to believe or not simply because of reason.


The question still works....... "Did God really say?" these verses about Himself?

I would answer, It is written.......! [ look at post # 125]
That's enough for me.
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Old 02-15-2008, 11:43 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,176,294 times
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Default [quote=zimbabwe;2835589]

Quote:
Originally Posted by zimbabwe View Post
Is the young man who killed nearly two dozen people at Northen Illinois University yesterday happy? or his victims? Of course not. Breaking the Lord's commandment in this case has caused a great deal of misery for everyone involved.
I absolutly agree! Don't get me wrong. Sin always hurts. It hurts the innocent. From a human stand point, it was senseless. I however, understand that our times are in Gods hands......and those who died their time of grace was over. I don't claim to have the mind of God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zimbabwe View Post
I have in my scriptures a small tract from a local Christian Church that encourages all of us to accept Jesus as our Savior. Let me quote it.

"Why not be 100% sure [that you are going to heaven] today? Would you just pray this prayer from your heart?

'Lord Jesus, I know that I'm a sinner and that you died for me. Please forgive me from my sin and take me to heaven when I die. Thank you! AMEN'" (brackets added for clarification)

If I am not misinterpreting this tract-- and I always allow others to interpret their own doctrine and material-- then if you say this prayer and believe in your heart, you are saved. I must ask, where is the repentence?
Zimbabwe, how much more explicit can it be about the repentence?

'Lord Jesus, I know that I'm a sinner and that you died for me. Please forgive me from my sin

Quote:
Originally Posted by zimbabwe View Post
To think that we can go on sinning and be saved in the kingdom of God is not correct. If we take pleasure in breaking the commandments of God why would we even want to go live in the presence of God?
You are 100% correct. As I said to sergeant;

Romans 3:31
"Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law."

My freedom FROM the law, doesn't give me a license to break the law. There will be those who will warp God in the other direction. As God spoke to the writer to the Hebrews rightfully warns.....

Hebrews 10:26-27
"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

God is serious about "the truth" or the rejection of it. This is no game of second chances, please don't believe that lie. After death those who reject "the truth" will face judgement and a raging fire of Gods wrath.

The proper use of the law is the key difference between the different faiths.

Jesus said again, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?"

Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."

The rich man went away sad....... Salvation is not based on one owns effort (no matter the % on my part), it is impossible.

Jesus' point to the rich man was its a all or nothing concept. Obeying the commandments gets you close, but not in. Jesus still has compassion for you zimbabwe as he did for the rich man, and wants you to see it.
So do I.
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Old 02-15-2008, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
146 posts, read 273,236 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Take your "IMMENSELY SELF RIGHTEOUS" log out your eye first .
I am not telling you that you will go to hell for all eternity for your belief in God if you turn out to be incorrect. I am actually willng to test the word of God and see if there is room for other points of view and I've come to the conclusion that there is. I take tremendous exception to Evangelical hatemongering. No doubt, you probably experienced something similar to me. You probably have attended sermons and Sunday school lessons that have one purpose and one purpose only: Telling you, me and every other person that will listen how insidiously evil Mormonism is. Depending on the pastor or minister, this may be taught rarely or it may be taught very frequently. Some congregations I've seen are so thoroughly indoctrinated against Mormonism that their members barely know what THEY believe.

I've overcome my prejudices and studied the matter with and open heart, by the Spirit and with an open mind. There are matters upon which Mormonism and I will never agree, but these are differences that a.) I will not go into here and b.) do not damn them to Hell for all eternity.

The beam of Self Righteousness has been out of my eye for a long time and God led me to it's removal.

Quote:
You are completely closed to all the other "truths" as well. When the Bible seems to teach opposite views, it is not up to us to determine what parts to believe or not simply because of reason.
A.) I'm currently between views. I was raised with the Trinitarian understanding. Through non-Dogmatic open-minded study of the Scriptures and guidance by the Holy Spirit in my studies, I've come to have doubts about the correctness of the Trinitarian doctrine. So to your point, I am currently wide open to other views, and I've no doubt that God will lead me to the right conclusions.
B.) You, on the other hand appear to have accepted Trinitarianism fully, wholely and completely. You are likely similar to most denominationals -- refusing to see the world or the Bible in any other way than the way other people told you to see it. Never bothering to doubt anything. And that is what I mean by "being closed to all other truth." Yes you may keep and open mind on the little stuff, but when it comes to questioning something big like the Trinity, can you truly bring yourself to give the other point of view a real chance? From what I've seen of you're posts, you can't.
C.) Why did you begin responding to me in a condescending manner to begin with? Why are you convinced that you are so absolutely correct about everything and that I'm clearly deluded and wrong.


Quote:
The question still works....... "Did God really say?" these verses about Himself?

I would answer, It is written.......! [ look at post # 125]
That's enough for me.
It will have to wait until I'm at home with my good sets of scriptures. I regretted wasting my time responding to your very long post for one simple reason: Great effort went into it and nothing was accomplished.

Why was nothing accomplished? Because I've heard it all before, every verse you're using and many others you didn't use. You've most likely heard it all before too. I keep and open mind to things, but I take exception to the idea people claiming to have absolute truth that cannot be absolutely proven Biblically or in any other way.

I will go through you're post and respond just one last time when I get home. Please do not be surprised if I come bac to my final conclusion that responding to you is a waste of time.
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Old 02-15-2008, 12:04 PM
 
1,125 posts, read 3,241,172 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Hi sergeant,
Again, the answer is based on from what it is you are implying by saying "subject to the commandments"

Paul (who probably would be the Mormons Mormon of our day) answer to that would be emphatically, ........ NO!
No, that is if you're using the law to be found worthy before God.

Romans 8:19-20
"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."

Romans 3:21
"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify"

Any prophet who is from God will testify a righteousness [worthiness] apart from the law.

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified [ to be declared worthy by Heavenly Father] by faith apart from observing the law.
__________________________________________________ _______________

Now here comes the ya but....................................

Romans 3:31
"Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law."

My freedom FROM the law, doesn't give me a license to break the law. There will be those who will warp God in the other direction. As God spoke to the writer to the Hebrews rightfully warns.....

Hebrews 10:26-27
"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

God is serious about "the truth" or the rejection of it. This is no game of second chances, please don't believe that lie. After death those who reject "the truth" will face judgement and a raging fire of Gods wrath.

The proper use of the law is the key difference between the different faiths.

Have a good day, sergeant.

Allow me this question. According to your understanding, what happens to someone who has been saved and then murders another?
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Old 02-15-2008, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
146 posts, read 273,236 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantL View Post
Allow me this question. According to your understanding, what happens to someone who has been saved and then murders another?
I think you're asking the wrong question. Why is it being implied that everyone that is not a Born Again Christian is not a Christian?? That is a question I raised, but I don't believe it was ever answered.

But I think your question deserves an answer as well.
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Old 02-15-2008, 12:57 PM
 
1,125 posts, read 3,241,172 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder View Post
I think you're asking the wrong question. Why is it being implied that everyone that is not a Born Again Christian is not a Christian?? That is a question I raised, but I don't believe it was ever answered.

But I think your question deserves an answer as well.
I understand your question; however, I already know the answer. I am not concerned with Twin's overall theology; I am only interested in specifics, which allow me to better understand Twin's reasoning.
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Old 02-15-2008, 01:27 PM
 
Location: Missouri
250 posts, read 449,023 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Zimbabwe, how much more explicit can it be about the repentence?

'Lord Jesus, I know that I'm a sinner and that you died for me. Please forgive me from my sin

Thank you Twin. I should have elaborated on this point better than I did. This is what the tract says, true--but that is all it says about "repentance". There is nothing about forsaking the sin and repenting and trying to make restitution (if possible). Can we repent unless we forsake the sin? Can we repent if we don't then keep the commandments? Of course not. Repentance is more than asking God to "forgive me from my sin".

Having said this, Twin, I believe that we are not that far off from each other because I know that you agree with much of what I have said. What Joseph Smith said is that keeping the commandments of God is the path to happiness. Surely you agree with this, too
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Old 02-15-2008, 01:42 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,176,294 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcats View Post
I am not going to concede this point, by I will propose a compromise. I cannot stand this “My Jesus is better than your Jesus” attitude. But I have come to realize that this is the way some people think. Therefore I propose the following:

You can say “The Jesus of [Insert Denomination] is not the same as the LDS Jesus. However, in the [Insert Denomination] portion must be more narrowly defined than just “Christianity”. You can say [Evangelicals] or [Born Agains] or [According to my understanding], but you must specify more than “Christianity.” After all, you consider yourself a Christian. We consider ourselves to be Christians. And you do not have the right to co-opt the term for your exclusive use.

I will then agree with the spirit of your statement that you differ in some aspects of your understanding of Jesus from us. Then after this life, we can let Jesus judge us on our own merits
Coolcats,
Ultimately, nobody is debated into believing anything.

Others have made the point that historically Mormons didn't considered themselves "Christians" anyway......arguments that may or may not be true.
The word "Christian" is found only 3 times in the Bible
Acts 11:26, Acts 26:28, and 1Peter 4:12

Acts 11:26 We do know that the term was first used in Antioch. So any "claim" to the title belongs to those in Antioch.

Acts 26:28 - It was expanded as to those who were disciples who believed in Christ teachings, his followers. It is also unclear as to the tone of Agrippa's words here. They could easily have been in the form of a sarcastic or derogatory question, which would make the term "Christian" a term of derision used by the world toward the disciples. I though have no reason to believe it was but a positive term.

1 Peter 4:12 - expanded the meaning to Christian living under suffering for your beliefs in Christ

So it would make sense to me that those who originally defined it would be the most indignant about exclusive rights being claimed. The term had a well defined meaning, unlike today.

Today, in terms of contemporary culture (particularly in the United States), a "christian" is a person who has the scantest intellectual knowledge about Jesus of Nazareth and who, if pressed for their religion, will not take the label Jew or Muslim or atheist but prefers the label "christian". The term "christian" is used by Popes and Presidents, homosexual clergymen and hollywood "stars". In other words, the term is not only meaningless, but it brings confusion as those who take it contradict what even they say their 'christ' represents.

That is why I tried to define it Jesus of Christianity only because it would refer to those 3 passages in the Bible and the beliefs they held at the time. Sorry for the broad brush....................

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcats View Post
I will then agree with the spirit of your statement that you differ in some aspects of your understanding of Jesus from us. Then after this life, we can let Jesus judge us on our own merits
Could not have said it better.
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Old 02-15-2008, 02:36 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,176,294 times
Reputation: 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder View Post
I think you're asking the wrong question. Why is it being implied that everyone that is not a Born Again Christian is not a Christian?? That is a question I raised, but I don't believe it was ever answered.

But I think your question deserves an answer as well.
I didn't answer that specifically because of the topic heading and it that I didn't think that any implication was raised by me.

I try to focus on the point that Jesus preached that salvation is a process that excludes anything that we as humans can take credit for. That is why his disciples finally asked " Who then can be saved?" They honestly were baffled. Jesus stressed this plan of salvation by saying the prophets and the law testify to this.

This is why I walk a very fine line.... Some in the "Born Again" movement make the process of coming to faith a "work" when Jesus said " No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him".

Romans 8:33
"Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies."


Jesus teaches that its to Gods credit for faith coming to me.
Jesus teaches that its my fault for rejecting the truth.
Jesus teaches that the "true" gospel is foolishness and a stumbling block to unbelievers.

As far as the hate mongering from the pulpit about Mormons. I have never heard that from our church..never! There is no room or time for hate. We focus on Law & Gospel.

It's hard enough to "defend" the trinity concept.....let alone to open another difficult subject about who are "not a Christian". The brush was too wide JW - Eastern Orthodox to go into every one in the list provided

Last edited by twin.spin; 02-15-2008 at 03:02 PM..
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Old 02-15-2008, 03:02 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,176,294 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantL View Post
Allow me this question. According to your understanding, what happens to someone who has been saved and then murders another?
What does this passages mean to you? Are they conflicting?

Hebrews 10:26-27
"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

and balance this verse with:

Mark 2:17
"On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
__________________________________________________ ______________


John 9:31
"We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will."


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