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Old 01-28-2008, 03:52 PM
 
1,125 posts, read 3,239,568 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
I started it because I thought that maybe here I could narrow it done and actually get one Mormon at least to acknowledge and affirm the plain teachings of Joseph Smith--their prophet and founder. And as you can see, again everything turns into rabbit trails and no one addressing the topic.

Did Joseph Smith say the quotes I posted and do you agree with them?

What is so hard about that?
Perhaps, Preterist, people have grown tired of all the Mormon threads. Perhaps people donít care what Joseph Smith said, just as I donít care that Pat Robertson said the following:

Quote:
"A cult is any group that has a form of godliness, but does not recognize Jesus Christ as the unique son of God."....."One test of a cult is that it often does not strictly teach that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God who Himself is God manifested in the flesh."......"Christian-oriented cults include the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Reorganized Church of Latter Day Saints (Mormons), the Worldwide Church of God, Christian Science, Unity, Unitarianism, The Way International, Rosicrucian Society of America, Bahai, Hare Krishna, Scientology, the Unification Church, and the Jehovah's Witnesses."
--CBN pamphlet entitled "Cults," dated 1992
It may also be a case, Preterist, where people suspect all of these Mormon threads are not innocent in nature and are likely the devices of angry and un-Christian like people with malicious intent, and people no longer wish to be associated with such conduct.

In any case, I believe Momtofour answered your question.
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Old 01-28-2008, 05:08 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
146 posts, read 273,128 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
I started it because I thought that maybe here I could narrow it done and actually get one Mormon at least to acknowledge and affirm the plain teachings of Joseph Smith--their prophet and founder. And as you can see, again everything turns into rabbit trails and no one addressing the topic.

Did Joseph Smith say the quotes I posted and do you agree with them?

What is so hard about that?

Preterist
It definitely SEEMS like you're obsessed with picking the Mormon faith apart. I am not the right person answer the questions as you very well can understand, but consider something. Do you believe the following statement to be true:

Mormonism is a cult, is members are deluded by Satan and they are all going to hell for their absolute refusal to discard their blasphemous doctrines and beliefs

Tit for tat Preterist. Based upon what you have said so far, you seem to believe the above statement. You are probably convinced that Mormons are going to hell. How does that stack up with "I was told that I must join none of them for all of them were wrong ..." combined with the doctrinal understanding that according to their doctrine you will NOT spend eternity in hell for for your incorrect beliefs (incorrect according to them).

Firstly, let God be the judge and stop trying to create a fight over things. I don't know where your obsession with attacking the Mormon faith is coming from, but it's like a broken record. People get tired of seeing what you will do next to pick a fight with the Mormons.

Secondly, I think that the general Christian view is a lot less kind than the Mormon "we're right and you're wrong" business. Damning people to an eternity in hell for their beliefs is a terrible thing. I wouldn't want anyone but my merciful and loving God making such a decision.

Personally, I don't believe Mormons will go to hell for their faith. I don't understand why so many Christians are so absolutely sure that this will be their eternal fate.

Finally, why the heck does the encoding of this site always screw up if I post through Firefox??
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Old 01-28-2008, 05:47 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,165,991 times
Reputation: 1308
Sergeant,
I respect your frustration in "defending" your positions. I know that from each sides view, we both feel a little of "alice in wonderland". Can you please explain, if you've decided not to respond any more to her, then why do you?
I find it intersting that a majority reponses are attack in nature,

Also, was it "loving your enemies" to make antagonistic remarks about a person?
"Originally Posted by SergeantL Yes. I'm beginning to suspect an obsessive compulsive disorder is at work here. What do you think, Big???".
You may not like\agree with what I wrote, but speaking for myself, I'm sure I never questioned your mental stability.

As far as her question, I can't say either way until I find the source. But since there was no objections to his statement (only voicing it), then I can say that JS stated it.
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Old 01-28-2008, 06:54 PM
 
1,125 posts, read 3,239,568 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder View Post
Finally, why the heck does the encoding of this site always screw up if I post through Firefox??
Because God hates you for being reasonable and logical in your analysis of the LDS position.
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Old 01-28-2008, 07:00 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,094,310 times
Reputation: 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder View Post
It definitely SEEMS like you're obsessed with picking the Mormon faith apart. I am not the right person answer the questions as you very well can understand, but consider something. Do you believe the following statement to be true:

Mormonism is a cult, is members are deluded by Satan and they are all going to hell for their absolute refusal to discard their blasphemous doctrines and beliefs

Tit for tat Preterist. Based upon what you have said so far, you seem to believe the above statement. You are probably convinced that Mormons are going to hell. How does that stack up with "I was told that I must join none of them for all of them were wrong ..." combined with the doctrinal understanding that according to their doctrine you will NOT spend eternity in hell for for your incorrect beliefs (incorrect according to them).

Firstly, let God be the judge and stop trying to create a fight over things. I don't know where your obsession with attacking the Mormon faith is coming from, but it's like a broken record. People get tired of seeing what you will do next to pick a fight with the Mormons.

Secondly, I think that the general Christian view is a lot less kind than the Mormon "we're right and you're wrong" business. Damning people to an eternity in hell for their beliefs is a terrible thing. I wouldn't want anyone but my merciful and loving God making such a decision.

Personally, I don't believe Mormons will go to hell for their faith. I don't understand why so many Christians are so absolutely sure that this will be their eternal fate.

Finally, why the heck does the encoding of this site always screw up if I post through Firefox??
godofthunder: What I have been trying to get at is the source of our beliefs--all of us--both Mormon and non-Mormon. If you have noticed, I have leveled the same charges toward the various denominations. Why do you believe what you believe? Is it enough for us to simply say "I believe" but have no basis for it other than our own personal convictions?

Mormonism and its tenets are founded upon the writings it considers to be authoritative. I don't know why everyone is getting so angry at me and attacking my motives and character for simply trying to ascertain what Mormons use as the foundation of their beliefs. Do you accept the teachings of Joseph Smith/Brigham Young? I am seeking understanding here. Has Mormonism today distanced itself somewhat from the writings and teachings of the earlier prophets? If so, why?

Yes, I believe in a literal hell just as the Bible proclaims it. All those outside of Christ are destined to go there. Ultimately, God makes that determination, but He did give us the road map--belief in Christ alone and being born again by the grace and power of God onto a new man fitted for His kingdom.

Preterist
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Old 01-28-2008, 07:12 PM
 
1,125 posts, read 3,239,568 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Sergeant,
I respect your frustration in "defending" your positions. I know that from each sides view, we both feel a little of "alice in wonderland". Can you please explain, if you've decided not to respond any more to her, then why do you?
Because after so many years on this planet, I have earned the right to be arbitrary and capricious, so I changed my mind and responded. I just may change my mind again. I learned that from my wife.

Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Also, was it "loving your enemies"
I donít recall declaring anyone my enemy, but if you consider us enemies, then, OK, I love you. Now, you might consider a threat level upgrade to your body armor; it seems a little thin skinned and appears to be causing you to suffer from back-face trauma.

Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
to make antagonistic remarks about a person?
"Originally Posted by SergeantL Yes. I'm beginning to suspect an obsessive compulsive disorder is at work here. What do you think, Big???".
You may not like\agree with what I wrote, but speaking for myself, I'm sure I never questioned your mental stability
.

Funny, but I thought Preterist started this thread; where do you come in?
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Old 01-28-2008, 09:50 PM
 
Location: Missouri
250 posts, read 448,790 times
Reputation: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
When inquiring of God which church he should join, Joseph Smith was supposedly told by God--

"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they ALL were wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that ALL their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were ALL corrupt; that: 'they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.'"

That assessment of other churches persists to this day. Only the Mormon Church has the restored Gospel. Ours is still corrupt.

Preterist
Regarding the quote, did Joseph Smith say it?, you ask.
Momtofour has answered you affirmatively. SergeantL has answered you affirmatively. I also say yes. No rabbit trails. So what about it?
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Old 01-28-2008, 10:06 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,165,991 times
Reputation: 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantL View Post
Because after so many years on this planet, I have earned the right to be arbitrary and capricious, so I changed my mind and responded. I just may change my mind again. I learned that from my wife.




Quote:
Originally Posted by seageantl View Post
I don’t recall declaring anyone my enemy, but if you consider us enemies, then, OK, I love you. Now, you might consider a threat level upgrade to your body armor; it seems a little thin skinned and appears to be causing you to suffer from back-face trauma.
Well sergeant, I'll increase my threat level when I see you coming at me. I'll get my cane and steal my fathers wheel chair and we'll just have to joust it out. (just to make it even)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sergeantl View Post
Funny, but I thought Preterist started this thread; where do you come in?
2 posts after you.
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Old 01-29-2008, 05:37 AM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
146 posts, read 273,128 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
godofthunder: What I have been trying to get at is the source of our beliefs--all of us--both Mormon and non-Mormon. If you have noticed, I have leveled the same charges toward the various denominations. Why do you believe what you believe? Is it enough for us to simply say "I believe" but have no basis for it other than our own personal convictions?

Mormonism and its tenets are founded upon the writings it considers to be authoritative. I don't know why everyone is getting so angry at me and attacking my motives and character for simply trying to ascertain what Mormons use as the foundation of their beliefs.
To a degree, I find it tiresome that every Christian religion seems so overly obsessed with telling the Mormons and the entire world that their religion is "false and of the devil."

If you are questioning the sources of their beliefs, then yes they are not orthodox nor compliant in the view of Christianity as a whole. They rely on sources outside the Bible. The authenticity of the souces they claim are scripture is on shaky ground. They believe in it.

But what do most Protestants and Catholics believe about the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants? That they are simply a rehashing of the Old and primarily the New Testament. If that is true, then their overall message would be unlikely to stray too terribly far from being Biblical.

Quote:
Do you accept the teachings of Joseph Smith/Brigham Young?
And you know that I personally do not accept them, but no doubt you are asking that question of Mormons. And it's a fair enough question.

Quote:
I am seeking understanding here. Has Mormonism today distanced itself somewhat from the writings and teachings of the earlier prophets? If so, why?
How many Christian religions haven't to some degree or another? Catholicism elevates saints and Mary to superhuman status -- worthy of being prayed to, yet this seems to be in direct contradiction to the writings of the ancient prophets and apostles. Virtually every denomination has some several doctrines that are not fully supported by the Biblical text, yet these doctrines become the central core to that denomination's belief system. Charismatics probably over-stress gifts of the Spirit. Baptists believe in the Born Again "once saved always saved" doctrine, and most of them accept the Rature as well. Presbyterians believe in Predestination. Seventh Day Adventists move the Sabbath back to Saturday and focus heavily upon the Law of Moses observations.

Now I do not intend to point any of these things out from spite. I point them out as things that other religions have simply agreed to disagree with them about. They are all examples of things that are not 100% validated by the Bible. Some would say that each are examples of going contrary to the Bible. But we do not disown them from Christianity over these matters.

So how does Mormon theology come out? In my study of their beliefs, there isn't anything they believe in that doesn't have some shred of validation from the Biblical text and Biblical tradition. A great many barely hang by a tiny thread, but none of them are in complete opposition to the Bible and it's teachings.

The main reason Christians get bent out of shape are two-fold. 1.) Mormons claim they have additional scriptures. 2.) A great many of their doctrines are in direct contradiction to age-old TRADITIONS accepted by all or most of Christianity.

Quote:
Yes, I believe in a literal hell just as the Bible proclaims it. All those outside of Christ are destined to go there. Ultimately, God makes that determination, but He did give us the road map--belief in Christ alone and being born again by the grace and power of God onto a new man fitted for His kingdom.

Preterist
And I believe the Mormonism, with all it's oddities, qualifies Mormons as "believers in Christ alone and being born again by the grace and power of God unto a new man fitted for His kingdom." You believe they are disqualified and going to hell. On this point, we will probably just have to agree to disagree.

You do seem obsessed with the matter of telling them they are going to hell. I think it's getting a bit old.
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Old 01-29-2008, 06:23 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,094,310 times
Reputation: 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder View Post
To a degree, I find it tiresome that every Christian religion seems so overly obsessed with telling the Mormons and the entire world that their religion is "false and of the devil."

If you are questioning the sources of their beliefs, then yes they are not orthodox nor compliant in the view of Christianity as a whole. They rely on sources outside the Bible. The authenticity of the souces they claim are scripture is on shaky ground. They believe in it.

But what do most Protestants and Catholics believe about the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants? That they are simply a rehashing of the Old and primarily the New Testament. If that is true, then their overall message would be unlikely to stray too terribly far from being Biblical.

And you know that I personally do not accept them, but no doubt you are asking that question of Mormons. And it's a fair enough question.

How many Christian religions haven't to some degree or another? Catholicism elevates saints and Mary to superhuman status -- worthy of being prayed to, yet this seems to be in direct contradiction to the writings of the ancient prophets and apostles. Virtually every denomination has some several doctrines that are not fully supported by the Biblical text, yet these doctrines become the central core to that denomination's belief system. Charismatics probably over-stress gifts of the Spirit. Baptists believe in the Born Again "once saved always saved" doctrine, and most of them accept the Rature as well. Presbyterians believe in Predestination. Seventh Day Adventists move the Sabbath back to Saturday and focus heavily upon the Law of Moses observations.

Now I do not intend to point any of these things out from spite. I point them out as things that other religions have simply agreed to disagree with them about. They are all examples of things that are not 100% validated by the Bible. Some would say that each are examples of going contrary to the Bible. But we do not disown them from Christianity over these matters.

So how does Mormon theology come out? In my study of their beliefs, there isn't anything they believe in that doesn't have some shred of validation from the Biblical text and Biblical tradition. A great many barely hang by a tiny thread, but none of them are in complete opposition to the Bible and it's teachings.

The main reason Christians get bent out of shape are two-fold. 1.) Mormons claim they have additional scriptures. 2.) A great many of their doctrines are in direct contradiction to age-old TRADITIONS accepted by all or most of Christianity.

And I believe the Mormonism, with all it's oddities, qualifies Mormons as "believers in Christ alone and being born again by the grace and power of God unto a new man fitted for His kingdom." You believe they are disqualified and going to hell. On this point, we will probably just have to agree to disagree.

You do seem obsessed with the matter of telling them they are going to hell. I think it's getting a bit old.
godofthunder: There are other threads. You see obsessed with following me around to continually tell me I am obsessed?

How far can one stray from the truth and still have truth? Joseph Smith, THEIR prophet, taught that God was once a mere man and that Jesus was our spirit brother with Satan and with all of us for that matter in a realm ruled by one of the many gods of the universe. He was simply chosen above all other spirit children to come to this planet, live a perfect life, and die for man's sins. If Mormons truly believe these things they are far outside the realm of Christianity.

What is belief unto salvation, godofthunder? The thing lacking in the Mormon doctrine is the new birth which makes of a sinner dead in his trespasses and sins a new man. It cannot be generated by man through any effort on his part--it is the gift of God by His grace. It is a transformation as spectacular and irreversible as a caterpillar becoming a butterfly. Without this change wrought be God by grace through belief in the God-Man, there is no salvation.

"Except a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3). "If anyone is IN CHRIST, he is a new CREATION; old things are passed away, behold, all things have become new" (2 Cor. 5:17).

Again, if steadfastly proclaiming the truth out of concern for others is being obsessive, then I stand guilty. IF I truly believe that those not born again (not just Mormons) are headed for hell (and I do), shouldn't I be obsessed with warning them of that? Do I simply say, "Peace, brother, go on your way?"

It is important what we believe and why we believe it! Was God once a man? Can man become God? These and other teachings by Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, the founders of Mormonism, are doctrines totally incompatible with Christianity. The leadership of the Mormon church today seems to want to distance itself from the teachings of their own founders because they are aware of this incompatibility.

A question for Mormons: Are you openly and aggressively taught the doctrines of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young? Are you encouraged to read and study the writings of these men? If they were prophets, should you not be able to find complete truth in their teachings? What do you think about the Journal of Discourses and the Doctrine and Covenants? Do these contain the doctrines of Mormonism? Are they compatible with Christianity?

Mormons simply state, "We believe in Jesus, so we are Christians." But they seem reluctant to share the source of the doctrines of their Church. Who is this Jesus in whom you believe? Do you get your understanding of Him from the Bible alone or from extrabiblical sources? What are those sources? What do they teach about Him?

Is Jesus one of three gods are Joseph Smith taught?

"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and THREE GODS (emphasis mind)." Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370).

It is essential that our beliefs be founded in Truth.

Preterist
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