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Old 01-29-2008, 06:26 AM
 
Location: Missouri
250 posts, read 448,286 times
Reputation: 52

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Quote:
Originally Posted by zimbabwe View Post
Regarding the quote, did Joseph Smith say it?, you ask.
Momtofour has answered you affirmatively. SergeantL has answered you affirmatively. I also say yes. No rabbit trails. So what about it?
Furthurmore Pre--, the LDS Church has never backed away from the First Vision, as odd as it may seem. I am not sure why you ask. Did I say something that made you think otherwise?
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Old 01-29-2008, 07:00 AM
 
Location: Missouri
250 posts, read 448,286 times
Reputation: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
godofthunder: There are other threads. You see obsessed with following me around to continually tell me I am obsessed?

How far can one stray from the truth and still have truth? Joseph Smith, THEIR prophet, taught that God was once a mere man and that Jesus was our spirit brother with Satan and with all of us for that matter in a realm ruled by one of the many gods of the universe. He was simply chosen above all other spirit children to come to this planet, live a perfect life, and die for man's sins. If Mormons truly believe these things they are far outside the realm of Christianity.

What is belief unto salvation, godofthunder? The thing lacking in the Mormon doctrine is the new birth which makes of a sinner dead in his trespasses and sins a new man. It cannot be generated by man through any effort on his part--it is the gift of God by His grace. It is a transformation as spectacular and irreversible as a caterpillar becoming a butterfly. Without this change wrought be God by grace through belief in the God-Man, there is no salvation.

"Except a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3). "If anyone is IN CHRIST, he is a new CREATION; old things are passed away, behold, all things have become new" (2 Cor. 5:17).

Again, if steadfastly proclaiming the truth out of concern for others is being obsessive, then I stand guilty. IF I truly believe that those not born again (not just Mormons) are headed for hell (and I do), shouldn't I be obsessed with warning them of that? Do I simply say, "Peace, brother, go on your way?"

It is important what we believe and why we believe it! Was God once a man? Can man become God? These and other teachings by Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, the founders of Mormonism, are doctrines totally incompatible with Christianity. The leadership of the Mormon church today seems to want to distance itself from the teachings of their own founders because they are aware of this incompatibility.

A question for Mormons: Are you openly and aggressively taught the doctrines of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young? Are you encouraged to read and study the writings of these men? If they were prophets, should you not be able to find complete truth in their teachings? What do you think about the Journal of Discourses and the Doctrine and Covenants? Do these contain the doctrines of Mormonism? Are they compatible with Christianity?

Mormons simply state, "We believe in Jesus, so we are Christians." But they seem reluctant to share the source of the doctrines of their Church. Who is this Jesus in whom you believe? Do you get your understanding of Him from the Bible alone or from extrabiblical sources? What are those sources? What do they teach about Him?

Is Jesus one of three gods are Joseph Smith taught?

"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and THREE GODS (emphasis mind)." Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370).

It is essential that our beliefs be founded in Truth.

Preterist

Preterist:

I have noticed that people who don't really want answers to the questions they ask set upon a stream of accusatory questions, often in the same vein as "have you stopped beating your wife, yet?" "Do you still believe in the teachings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, which are in total contradiction to the tenants of Christianity?" Now Preterist, you know that is not in the spirit of truly seeking to understand. You are picking a fight.

Instead, why don't you ask one question at a time and ask it in a reasonable tone, and someone will endeavor to answer. Start with the First Vision since that is your first question. I think we have answered it. I would like to know your point of it.

I think I know where you are going. So before we get started, you should understand the way doctrine is accepted in the church. All doctrinal questions are settled by governing councils under the inspiration of God, much in the same way Peter presented his experience with Cornelius to the Twelve Apostles.
For all things must be done in order, and by common consent in the church, by the prayer of faith. (D & C 28:13)
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Old 01-29-2008, 07:15 AM
 
1,125 posts, read 3,235,097 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
godofthunder: There are other threads. You see[m] obsessed with following me around to continually tell me I am obsessed?
Uh, in case you haven't noticed, Preterist, he's not the only one giving you the same message.
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Old 01-29-2008, 08:12 AM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
146 posts, read 272,865 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
godofthunder: There are other threads. You see obsessed with following me around to continually tell me I am obsessed?

How far can one stray from the truth and still have truth? Joseph Smith, THEIR prophet, taught that God was once a mere man and that Jesus was our spirit brother with Satan and with all of us for that matter in a realm ruled by one of the many gods of the universe. He was simply chosen above all other spirit children to come to this planet, live a perfect life, and die for man's sins. If Mormons truly believe these things they are far outside the realm of Christianity.

What is belief unto salvation, godofthunder? The thing lacking in the Mormon doctrine is the new birth which makes of a sinner dead in his trespasses and sins a new man. It cannot be generated by man through any effort on his part--it is the gift of God by His grace. It is a transformation as spectacular and irreversible as a caterpillar becoming a butterfly. Without this change wrought be God by grace through belief in the God-Man, there is no salvation.

"Except a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3). "If anyone is IN CHRIST, he is a new CREATION; old things are passed away, behold, all things have become new" (2 Cor. 5:17).

Again, if steadfastly proclaiming the truth out of concern for others is being obsessive, then I stand guilty. IF I truly believe that those not born again (not just Mormons) are headed for hell (and I do), shouldn't I be obsessed with warning them of that? Do I simply say, "Peace, brother, go on your way?"

It is important what we believe and why we believe it! Was God once a man? Can man become God? These and other teachings by Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, the founders of Mormonism, are doctrines totally incompatible with Christianity. The leadership of the Mormon church today seems to want to distance itself from the teachings of their own founders because they are aware of this incompatibility.

A question for Mormons: Are you openly and aggressively taught the doctrines of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young? Are you encouraged to read and study the writings of these men? If they were prophets, should you not be able to find complete truth in their teachings? What do you think about the Journal of Discourses and the Doctrine and Covenants? Do these contain the doctrines of Mormonism? Are they compatible with Christianity?

Mormons simply state, "We believe in Jesus, so we are Christians." But they seem reluctant to share the source of the doctrines of their Church. Who is this Jesus in whom you believe? Do you get your understanding of Him from the Bible alone or from extrabiblical sources? What are those sources? What do they teach about Him?

Is Jesus one of three gods are Joseph Smith taught?

"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and THREE GODS (emphasis mind)." Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370).

It is essential that our beliefs be founded in Truth.

Preterist
Firstly, I don't believe I've been on this forum for long enough to qualify as being your stalker quite yet. It does seem that you just gave up on the longer thread and went and created a new one, but you're message and your attitude haven't changed. It seems like you're just picking up where you left off.

The biggest problem I think you're going to face: You're credibility as a person "who just wants to understand" is pretty much gone. This is unfortunate because even if you ask a sincere question, you're behavior up to this point has assured that everyone automatically assume that you're just trying to pick a fight and trying to bash Mormonism.

You say that you've done extensive research. I've yet to see any evidence of you having researched anything other than reading up on you're typcial Mormon-hating literature. I haven't seen any indication whatsoever to even attempt to see things from other people's point of view. You keep on using very common buzz-words and inflamitory themes that are commonplace in the "The Mormon Cult" Sunday School lesson in many Christian Churches.

If you're true intent is to simply understand what they believe, then ask one question at a time -- NOT a question targetted to engender hostility. Let them answer the question and ask further, probing questions until you feel you can at least understand why they believe that certain thing. You do not have to agree with the belief. If you're single intent is to save Mormons from hell, then you're going to have to be a lot more understanding than you have thusfar demonstrated yourself to be. You'd also have to convince a lot of people that you are really and truly sincere.

If you do not want to understand why Mormons believe what they believe, then don't pretend. Don't try to create traps or try to catch them in their words. That approach is of the Devil and you most certainly should know it. Leave the subject alone and let God deal with it.

If you're intent is to discredit, demonize and preach hellfire and brimstone against them, then you're only wasting everyone's time on the matter. It doesn't help anyone.
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Old 01-29-2008, 08:23 AM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
146 posts, read 272,865 times
Reputation: 57
Odd I think I just more or less repeated the same thing as somone else.
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Old 01-29-2008, 08:28 AM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
1,467 posts, read 2,787,710 times
Reputation: 696
Quote:
Odd I think I just more or less repeated the same thing as somone else.
Well I think groundhog day is getting close.

Well I think groundhog day is getting close.

Well I think groundhog day is getting close.

(Sorry, couldn't resist )
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Old 01-29-2008, 08:43 AM
 
1,804 posts, read 6,989,645 times
Reputation: 997
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
A question for Mormons: Are you openly and aggressively taught the doctrines of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young? Are you encouraged to read and study the writings of these men?
Why yes we are as a matter of fact. Beginning this January, our weekly lessons commenced with a two-year course of study on the Teachings of Joseph Smith. The basis for the lessons come from a 200+ page book given to all Church members. The book contains direct quotes from Joseph Smith’s sermons. A couple of years ago, a similar book on the teachings of Brigham Young formed a year-long course of study.

But yet you will claim
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
The leadership of the Mormon church today seems to want to distance itself from the teachings of their own founders
Your mistake, Preterist, is your arguments are based on arrogant assumptions that A) you are infallible in your understanding of Christianity; B) the rest of the world in general, and Mormons in particular, secretly realize they are incompatible with the absolute truth that you have found and need to cover up their mistakes; C) the best way to reach non-believing heathens is to confront them in an all out assault; D) You must continue your assault with guns blazing and leave no room for concession or understanding or dialog; E) There is no room for examination of your techniques because they are based on your infallible understanding of Jesus, and are exactly WJWD if he were here in person.
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Old 01-29-2008, 08:44 AM
 
7 posts, read 14,277 times
Reputation: 11
Pots calling kettles black. Funny.
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Old 01-29-2008, 08:46 AM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
146 posts, read 272,865 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlemur View Post
Well I think groundhog day is getting close.

Well I think groundhog day is getting close.

Well I think groundhog day is getting close.

(Sorry, couldn't resist )
LOL, that's what I get for not reading all the posts first.
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Old 01-29-2008, 10:04 AM
 
7,780 posts, read 13,476,969 times
Reputation: 3452
Guys(and gals), I just read this thread and made a few deletions. I didn't go through each and every post and delete the off-topic, personal comments because it would take so much time and I truly HATE editing other peoples posts (it's just that folks writings seem very personal to me and I don't fell right doing it).

Anyway, any poster has the right to ask any question and any other poster has the right to respond to any thread on the CD forums.

You might not like the thread but it's still a thread as long as everything in the OP conforms to the Terms Of Service.

I have no problem saying "Why do you keep asking these questions?" as long as you do take the time to actually respond to the OP.

Trust me, Mormonism, evolution, homosexuality, Universalism, etc all seem to be beat to death here, but remember we have new members joining everyday. If you're 'burnt out' on a topic, just don't post.

Thanks gang!
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